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tom_330

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Did anyone watch recently on A Current Affair and Today Tonight the stories on the hospital system? In one story 3 children were killed by doctors who stuffed up by giving incorrect treatment such as being negligent or administering the wrong drugs. In another story a baby girl was killed by incompetent asian junior doctors who could barely speak english, when questioned the hospital in Adelaide said there were 35 spare places in the hospital for junior doctors, so they had to employ overseas interns. This is strange considering I recently read that 2,900 people applied for UNSW Medicine with only 137 places. So why are there not enough medical students or doctors in Adelaide. It doesn't make much sense to me that there is such a shortage of doctors especially in rural areas and there is so much competition for medicine and so many people applying for medical degrees currently. Can anyone comment on this?
 
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+Po1ntDeXt3r+

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not enough medical graduates for internships.

junior doctors wont work crazily long hours either so hence the shortage.

UNSW is also not in Adelaide.. making UNSW graduates less likely to come to Adelaide..

Im not sure about the ACA and TT stories tho.
 

tom_330

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Well I can't really understand how there are 2,900 people applying for UNSW Medicine with an applicant success rate of 5% and there not being enough interns in Adelaide shouldn't the level of competition be equal in all of Australia? Also the reason interns would work long hours is that the hospitals need them and the interns resigning makes the hospitals trouble even more difficult. And the hours shouldn't even matter, the medical graduates should be motivated enough to work those hours, if they aren't motivated that much then they shouldn't even be working in Medicine.
 

+Po1ntDeXt3r+

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no i think ure mistaken to think that interns dun need supervisors..
.. thats how patients die.. when supervisors or senior doctors arent teaching and looking after them
SA needs more senior doctors realli..

in reality interns make very few decisions.. until they start or complete a fellowship..

Graduates from Adelaide and Flinders dun always end up in Adelaide.. because of graduate mobility and many mid-20s like the big cities and the lifestyles..

medical graduates shouldnt have to work really long hrs.. thats how more mistakes are made. I know i wouldnt work hours lik those of former years cos its negligent to the patient.. and u can get sued for it :).

according to a recent report .. thats the problem with GP now.. junior GPs work about 3 hrs less a week on average.. leading to a larger shortage...

lifestyle and self-care are important once u start working in medicine.
Family time and social time are factors that ppl need and its usually at the sacrifice of work overtimes.
 

+:: $i[Q]u3 ::+

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You have to realise that workforce "shortage" is generally concentrated around certain areas - like rural/remote areas. The government's rural student entry program is just one of the strategies currently trying to get graduates where they are needed - in rural practices. Having said that, workforce shortage in city hospitals is not uncommon, and probably closely related to funding issues. Think Camden hospital - it was built in a flurry right before elections, but it's just been so understaffed and underresourced to maintain efficient health services. Money's not the only problem, but it is a fairly significant one.

Also, please don't make judgmental comments about how doctors should work long hours. It's just bloody inconsiderate and shows a complete lack of respect for them as people who live, breathe and eat just as the next person does. I'm sure they have feelings too.
 

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Right, I'm going to say this straight up - you, dear poster, are grossly misinformed, and decidedly disconnected in reason.

1) The number of doctors in Adelaide has absolutely NOTHING to do with the competition for places in Medicine at UNSW.

The number of doctors is more important when considering how many are needed, versus how many we can train. This in turn affects the number of medical places we need, and since we obviously need more the government has created more places. Sadly, they have failed to equally expand the resources necessary to TRAIN said doctors, meaning that medical schools are forced to maintain the restricted intake until they can actually AFFORD the (very expensive) facilities and staff necessary to pump these doctors through.

2) Competition will never be uniform anywhere, in anything, ever.

Tell me, are house prices in Liverpool as high as in Vaucluse? Or are there as many flights between Sydney and Melbourne as between Brisbane and Adelaide? Location means a lot, and some locations are far more lucrative than others. Though the competition for places in medical school is more or less uniform (a little higher in the Sydney and Melbourne schools), competition for graduate work is VERY different. It is a reality that young, reasonably-paid professionals who have spent their entire self-aware life studying are most interested in living where there is a lifestyle suited to their tastes. For most young doctors, this means Sydney (and for the rejects, Melbourne). This most certainly does NOT mean Adelaide, Perth, Hobart, Brisbane or (Lord help us) Darwin.

Furthermore, there is a UNIVERSAL shortage of medical professionals - the greater competition for major cities only means they can be a little more picky, not that they are flooded with applicants. Any city outside the inner west is short-staffed, and depends on Sydney's popularity with interstate graduates to fill shoes. What happens in those cities without such a convenient card to play? Even more importantly, patient "queues" are so long because patients are presenting when they really shouldn't - like coming to the emergency room with your choking baby, and then signing in the other three kids "for a check-up". Or running three kilometres and complaining of leg pain.

3) We are professionals, NOT salesmen

Health is not something you simply buy - it is something you either earn or luck into. Doctors are not there to please your every whim, we are busy, highly trained individuals with a job to do. Don't just come in to our office with a checklist of demands - you will NEVER be satisfied, and we don't care. Be realistic - we will do what we can for you, and if you cooperate things will usually, hopefully, go well.

4) We are not your servants

Very much related to the above point. Who are you to tell doctors what kinds of hours they should work, or what kind of standards they should perform to? You are not a CUSTOMER, you are a PATIENT. If we wanted to simply serve we'd have gone to maid school or whatever - doctors are human too, and have to deal with a whole lot more shit than "normal people". Doctors need sleep, they need leisure, they need love and they need YOU to get the fuck out and stop telling them how to do their job. Maybe if you came and tried it out you could give some "feedback" but until then, no way. How many dying people do non-doctors have to handle in a given day? Distraught families? Crippled athletes? Elderly widows, suddenly left entirely alone? This is way more emotional damage than can be handled just walking off the street - telling someone they're not good enough because they can't go without sleep and food is quite simply an insult to one's own intelligence.

Plus, it's damn well unsafe - if you get tired after working in Coles for eight hours, you might give someone the wrong change. If we get tired after working eight hours of surgery, we might give someone the wrong lungs. Big difference. Of course, the wrong drugs are more likely, and definitely more lethal.

5) Doctors have just as much right to leave their job as everyone else

Have you ever considered why a young doctor may choose to quit? Perhaps the hours are affecting his family life, or the environment is hostile, or maybe he plain doesn't like the area he's currently handling (emergency, for example). These things are common to all professions, and any sane person can agree that such problems would interfere with a person mentally, emotionally, and physically. However, in medicine such deterioration leads to personal dangers for patients - an exhausted, unhappy doctor with problems with his family is NOT going to be as effective a clinician as one without these problems. In fact, doctors are ethically bound to leave their posts if they realise the safety of their patients is compromised - it's better to have one less doctor than a dangerous one.

6) In short, L2P nubcake

We are human beings who have to perform a superhuman function. Until you understand just what is going on, you do NOT have the right to make judgement. I invite you to read beyond the simpleton message of Today Tonight, and actually see what doctors and other health professionals deal with. Then, when you are truly informed, contemplate the grievances you have aired above.

If anything I have posted offends you, then keep in mind it is because everything you posted offended me - and all other members of the medical sphere.
 

name_disclosed

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You are an idiot if you absolutely believe current affair stories.
Having said that, I am sure many are offended by your comment about doctors shouldnt be doctors if they arent willing to work long hours. I know i was.
Seriously, doctors have a life outside of work, and i think people like you should respect that.
 

hipsta_jess

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medical graduates shouldnt have to work really long hrs.. thats how more mistakes are made.
Exactly. I remember reading an article a while back, and to be excessively tired is essentially the same as being intoxicated to the point of being over the legal limit for driving. I forget the amount by, but it was something phenomenal.
 

Bob.J

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didnt some guy from newcastle med fall asleep whilst driving
and sue the uni

coz he had to stay at hospital for a looooong time
or maybe he was an intern who graduated from newcastle uni and sued the hospital
i dont know
but the common word is 'sue'
 

+Po1ntDeXt3r+

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yeah... but then im already on almost 30 hrs of just contact.. and its sooooo stressful and tiring.. very few ppl in other uni courses would do tat for 5-6 yrs then get paid jack...

then ure suppose to do lik 15-25 hrs of work at home too..

its only goin to get longer too :(
 

tom_330

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Settle down "name disclosed" youre overreacting, no need to make death threats just because i said some people are lame (so someone should be killed because that person said some people are lame...yeah that makes alot of sense). I bet you wouldn't say that to me in person youre lucky you can hide here in these lame forums or you'd be the one who'd be dead.
 
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name_disclosed

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"Ok, I'll make a deal with you. I'll die but first im going to kill you, kill your mother and kill your father there thats a fair deal dont you think?"

Nice PM tom. I guess you are the one making the death threats.
If you closely read my original message, i.e. "Go fuck yourself and die," there is absolutely no hint of a death threat. If anything, I merely told you to go enjoy yourself, and then possibly commit suicide, if you don't die in any other way. As you can see, I did not actually specify deadline for your death, so that can mean that you might die sometime in the next 5 years, 10 years, 20 years, and so on. Furthermore, as I have not specified how you would die, it could mean that you might die due to disease, old age, suicide, drug overdose, homicide, etc etc.

And the fact that there is a shortage cannot be blamed on doctors who do not decide to work long hours. They are people and employees of the health system, and they have the right to a 38 hour week just like the rest of the population. There are many doctors who choose to work overtime, and good on them. But there are those who decide to not work overtime, and there is absolutely nothing wrong with that either. Just so you know, doctors need to constantly update their knowledge of the changing aspects of the medical field, and that involves many hours outside of work, studying and attending conventions, meetings etc. This requires a certain amount of dedication, and I'll be damned if most people think that doctors are overrated.
 

+Po1ntDeXt3r+

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38 hrs ?!

noone works tat little!

intern places actually have overtime built into them... lik.. mandatory overtime.. its not a choice..
and then there are on-call hrs.. and some of them also teach clinical students..

just thought id clarify tat
 

hipsta_jess

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I find it interesting that people almost expect doctors to work long hours...or at the very least, for doctors to always be available (which leads to working long hours)

However, when they screw up due to fatigue, and mis-diagnose someone, leave gauze in an open wound, or write an incorrect prescription...they're the worst in the world.

Doctors are mere mortals like the rest of us. They're not infallible. Don't treat them as if they're gods.
 

tom_330

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What are you talking about death threats i didnt make any death threats. This is coming from a person who tells me to die I didnt even say anything. And I don't go to TAFE I go to high school you imbecile. And the only reason I said doctors are overrated is because there are hundreds of tv shows about doctors and im sick of them. I guess ive been brainwashed by tv.
 
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name_disclosed

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Clearly, you are the imbecile since you seem to base your judgemental comments about a professional group of people from your experience with tv shows.
 

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