homosexuals (5 Viewers)

[AgentGreeny]

You touched on something that I too would really like to know 100% but... unfortunately due to my non-diety status I can't. And that is, "If there is a God, does he know everything I'm going to do - or am I truly free from that and he does not know?" Arguments for both sides are valid, namely - "But he's god so he has to know all" and to counter, "Then well, if he knows all, why doesn't he just punish those which he knows will end up not believing in him", but then if that's true then we were put in the world as part of a grand plan and he already knows we're going to hell so... is that not unfair that he put us in the world fully knowing he's going to damn us to eternal hell anyway? (taking the Christian God perspective)


For point 2: Well, say you yourself made a world and you held the view men mating with men is disgusting. And then in your little world, men mated with men. Wouldn't you be angry? I mean, a bad example I can think of is children - say, if you told your kids homosexuality was bad, and then your kids turned out gay... nevermind if it's a correct view or not, but you as the parent would be pretty annoyed.

For point 3: Arguable, I will admit that.

#1 If we looked at it from a fatalist point of view, the universe has an ultimate and inescapable future based on prior events. No effect is without cause. If no effect is without cause, and a being knew everything, he would know the past, the present and the future. He knew you and I would be born while the earth was still cooling. That puts a rather large hole in the "this life is nothing but a test and to not be gay is one of those tests" mindset, because as products of nothing more than our brains, bodies and interaction with the external environment there is really no "test" to pass or fail when the answers are already on the page.

#2 If the creator of the universe DID happen to hate gay people then I'm sure he would be very angry. Happily there's no reason to believe that's the case, because if that was his view and he really believed we had to stone them to death then we would be living under the thumb of a very immoral being indeed.
The parent who hated gay people and had a gay kid would indeed be annoyed. I would say the parent has no moral leg to stand on to say "homosexuality is bad" without justification, especially when their kids turn out gay anyway. It goes to show that it's not a choice, some people are born straight just like some people are born gay.

#3 Thanks for being honest enough to admit that it's an arguable point I think if the biblical god exists he's a pretty immoral fellow in my opinion, all those genocides and laws about putting people to death for pretty minor stuff don't bode well with me lol.

 

[AgentGreeny]

http://community.boredofstudies.org/showthread.php?t=257055

If you want to discuss the existence of God

Thanks for the link, although I feel like the subject matter is still tending towards the question: is the idea of god relevant in the debate on gay marriage. I'll avoid any "question of his existence" tangent as well as I can lol

 

[Shadowdude]

#1 If we looked at it from a fatalist point of view, the universe has an ultimate and inescapable future based on prior events. No effect is without cause. If no effect is without cause, and a being knew everything, he would know the past, the present and the future. He knew you and I would be born while the earth was still cooling. That puts a rather large hole in the "this life is nothing but a test and to not be gay is one of those tests" mindset, because as products of nothing more than our brains, bodies and interaction with the external environment there is really no "test" to pass or fail.

#2 If the creator of the universe DID happen to hate gay people then I'm sure he would be very angry. Happily there's no reason to believe that's the case, or that this creator even exists, because if he did and that was his view we would be living under the thumb of a very immoral being indeed.
The parent who hated gay people and had a gay kid would indeed be annoyed, and I would say the parent has no moral leg to stand on to say "homosexuality is bad" without justification, and their kids turn out gay anyway. It goes to show that it's not a choice, some people are born straight just like some people are born gay.

#3 Thanks for being honest enough to admit that it's an arguable point I think if the biblical god exists he's a pretty immoral fellow in my opinion, all those genocides and laws about putting people to death for pretty minor stuff don't bode well with me lol.

For your point 1, there we start getting into the super big picture and to be honest, I'm... still figuring out the answer to that question myself. Hmm.

For point 2, I'd refer you back to why I made the reference to homosexuals. Remember I asked you if you made a world and blah blah blah, and then you said "What do I care what they do?" And then I said, "Well, suppose you hated homosexuals and you made a world, how would you..." and then all the rest of it.

But yes, I'd think we cannot prove that a god exists based on what we have now - but at least you saw my point that if there was a God, and he hated gays and then we as God's creation things went all gay - he'd be furious. Whether God exists or not... another matter. Whether that's immoral... another matter. The bad example of the parent, exactly why I said it was a bad example - it has those flaws you pointed out.

 

[qawe]

Ah, but you see the catch here is that you're not omnibenovolent.

there's nothing wrong with righteous anger. "Be angry and do not sin" Psalm 4

#1 If we looked at it from a fatalist point of view, the universe has an ultimate and inescapable future based on prior events. No effect is without cause. If no effect is without cause, and a being knew everything, he would know the past, the present and the future. He knew you and I would be born while the earth was still cooling. That puts a rather large hole in the "this life is nothing but a test and to not be gay is one of those tests" mindset, because as products of nothing more than our brains, bodies and interaction with the external environment there is really no "test" to pass or fail when the answers are already on the page.

#2 If the creator of the universe DID happen to hate gay people then I'm sure he would be very angry. Happily there's no reason to believe that's the case, because if that was his view and he really believed we had to stone them to death then we would be living under the thumb of a very immoral being indeed.
The parent who hated gay people and had a gay kid would indeed be annoyed. I would say the parent has no moral leg to stand on to say "homosexuality is bad" without justification, especially when their kids turn out gay anyway. It goes to show that it's not a choice, some people are born straight just like some people are born gay.

#3 Thanks for being honest enough to admit that it's an arguable point I think if the biblical god exists he's a pretty immoral fellow in my opinion, all those genocides and laws about putting people to death for pretty minor stuff don't bode well with me lol.

imo the creator of the universe doesn't hate any people

Yes but here context is irrelevant as these laws were meant to be for the whole of humanity for the whole of time (my eg was from the NT, and said by Jesus himself paraphrasing God). In what godamn setting/context would you condone that absolutism?
If you don't follow that particular bit of the bible why do you neccesarily pick and choose to follow other bits?

I know you're arguing based on context. But context is irrelevant here. In any context no one would condone these acts (from a western moral perspective ofc, which probably influences your morality more than the bible).
The fact that this is the bible makes you emotionally implicated.

(take the bold parts in order)
you've emboldened the very flaw in your argument. where does it say that? in fact, the ot continually refers to a redeemer, that will come, who will change everything
because im looking at the bible from the perspective of a christian not a jew
i don't condone those acts. the point is that jesus has called us to a more excellent way than the Law which was meant for human weakness, so now there is no killing
name one example when western morality trumps the bible. of course, as a christian, i follow the laws of any country (entrenched in which are certain levels of morality) which do not conflict with the bible, and I only oppose (which you interpret as emotionally implicated) those things which do (eg homosexuality)

If I were omnipotent and omniscient and I created everything, I think it might be simple enough to comprehend that intelligent people won't take a mouldy iron age book at face value. After all I created them, right? Why would god create humans who do something he doesn't like, then punish them for it when he knew exactly what they'd do even before they were born?

he created them with a good nature, but with free will to go against this if they wished

he knew, but this doesn't diminish one's responsibility for their own actions

Well I wouldn't punish them for 3 reasons.

1. I created everything, set it all in motion. Whether you think god just banged the big bang and walked away or he interferes in reality, you can't escape the fact that if he exists then he already knows everything that happens and will happen before it happens. You can't "sin" because you already "sinned" in god's eyes, if we were getting into a philosophical discussion I would explain why free will doesn't exist but that's not the way this seems to be going.

2. Why would I even care what they do? Does it honestly matter to the creator of the entire universe, who created billions of galaxies, whether 2 people of the same gender marry? Can you conceive of any scenario where it would have any negative effect, anywhere, ever? If anything god wouldn't mind, because it's just freeing up space in heaven.

3. It's immoral to use infinite punishments for finite crimes. Even the OT doesn't have such a diabolical idea as eternal punishment. It almost makes me sick that we teach this to children like it's true.

1. eg I send someone into a room with a red and green box and tell them to choose one. You know that he's going to choose the red one, but does that constitute any sort of coercion to choose it

2. are you God? Do you know everything?

3. how do you know it's immoral? in any case these finite crimes constitute something much bigger, a complete rejection of God. old testament on eternal punishment: Daniel 12:2 "And many of those who sleep in the dust of the ground will awake, these to everlasting life, but the others to disgrace and everlasting contempt."

 

[Shadowdude]

he created them with a good nature, but with free will to go against this if they wished

he knew, but this doesn't diminish one's responsibility for their own actions

Hold on, hold on... so he knows what we're going to do even before we do it.

 

[qawe]

Hold on, hold on... so he knows what we're going to do even before we do it.

absolutely, he knows everything

 

[scuba_steve2121]

Man god is a dick, sadistic bastard that god is

 

[Shadowdude]

absolutely, he knows everything

So if the Christian God is true, he already knows if I am going to hell or not.

 

[qawe]

So if the Christian God is true, he already knows if I am going to hell or not.

yes

 

[Shadowdude]

yes

Any bible verse to back that up...? Or is that just "He is God, he knows all, so clearly he knows whether I'm going to heaven".

 

[RANK 1]

absolutely, he knows everything

from the 'do u believe in god' thread

but if he knows everything already then free will is just an illusion and therefore he would already know who is going to find him or not(assuming he existed), which would mean that whether or not an individual is going to burn in hell for eternity is already predetermined from the moment of birth. this would also mean that people in ireland, england, etc will have less of a chance to be sent to hell as opposed to people in china, thailand and india.

 

[Shadowdude]

from the 'do u believe in god' thread

I think with qawe's line of argument - he made a point before. If you got a person to go into a room to pick from a red and green box, and you knew he was going to pick the green box beforehand - it doesn't mean you coerced him to pick the green box, it just means you know. I think that's what he was getting at.

 

[Bored_of_HSC]

(take the bold parts in order)
you've emboldened the very flaw in your argument. where does it say that? in fact, the ot continually refers to a redeemer, that will come, who will change everything
because im looking at the bible from the perspective of a christian not a jew
i don't condone those acts. the point is that jesus has called us to a more excellent way than the Law which was meant for human weakness, so now there is no killing
name one example when western morality trumps the bible. of course, as a christian, i follow the laws of any country (entrenched in which are certain levels of morality) which do not conflict with the bible, and I only oppose (which you interpret as emotionally implicated) those things which do (eg homosexuality)

Yes but i quoted the "redeemer". This is the guy who you believe changes everything just outlining a very draconian practice (i'm trying to be as polite as i can here lol). Again to the rest of your points, i've quoted from the NT, not the OT. Your redeemer said these things.
As for your last part, i think the above example of killing those who speak against their parents answers that. Haven't you ever wondered why what it means to be 'christian' has changed throughout these 2000 years?

 

[Absolutezero]

I think with qawe's line of argument - he made a point before. If you got a person to go into a room to pick from a red and green box, and you knew he was going to pick the green box beforehand - it doesn't mean you coerced him to pick the green box, it just means you know. I think that's what he was getting at.

It's not about coercion, it's about pre-determination. Making free will illusory.

 

[RANK 1]

I think with qawe's line of argument - he made a point before. If you got a person to go into a room to pick from a red and green box, and you knew he was going to pick the green box beforehand - it doesn't mean you coerced him to pick the green box, it just means you know. I think that's what he was getting at.

if u knew some1 to hell then being god, u could easily prevent their fate to eternal damnation

 

[RANK 1]

so like, can any1 explain to me why dragons are any less plausible than god

 

[Absolutezero]

so like, can any1 explain to me why dragons are any less plausible than god

Dragons as less plausible than god because they are visible.

Invisible undetectable dragons on the other hand, are just as plausible as god.

 

[RANK 1]

but how do we know that they just haven't gone extinct and when they die their whole body disintegrates so that there's no trace of them left

 

[Absolutezero]

but how do we know that they just haven't gone extinct and when they die their whole body disintegrates so that there's no trace of them left

You don't. You've just got to have faith.

 

[RANK 1]

You don't. You've just got to have faith.

oh i see, so as long as u have faith anything is plausible, including an omnipotent, omniscient and omnibenevolent God right?