German Authorities Slam "The God Delusion" for Kids (1 Viewer)

[Mabs]

I'm not sure what you're talking about. As far as I can see noone has made an argument for pro-religious education. In this thread --> Gh3y and Tully are debating anti-religious education and I have suggested Dennett's idea of a religion-neutral program of comparative religion.

As far as I can see Tully thinks the scripture we have at the moment is fine. I'd consider that to be pro-religious education.
"I think there is nothing wrong with scripture in primary school, and once a kid is old enough to make their own informed decision they can decide whether or not to become a raging atheist."

How about once a child is old enough to make their own informed decision then they can be introduced to scripture? If you're going to a public school in our *supposedly* secular education system (Well I mean.. It isn't theocratic or anything) that's how it should be. Same with religious schools not getting government funding. If you want to include religion to such a degree in a secular system it must be private. At high school I would say yes a religious education class is fine.

(continue reading for tangent)
HOWEVER from my experience while the teacher was a biased Christian who in not so many words said "Today we're learning about <insert religion here> which is inferior to Christianity and they're going to burn in hell." we at least had a proper religious studies class which educated us on many religions. My sisters however recently started school at Asquith Girls High School and they had "Christian Studies" not only that unlike my school (KCAHS) they tried to force them to take the class. (and let me tell you.. My father made short work of that idea) Is this acceptable in a public high school? No. Is a religious education class which discusses a diverse range of religions and which you can opt-out of without it being a big deal? Yes.
(The above is not in relation to your argument so much Tully)

Summary:
Primary School Scripture = bad
Government funded religious schools = bad
High School Religious Studies = good
"Christian Studies" in a public school = bad
Non opt-out religious classes = bad
Also:
Secular education = doubleplusgood

 

[Captain Gh3y]

Calm down

 

[Atticus.]

im sorry (to whoever it was that disagreed that there isnt a bandwagon) but there really really REALLY REALLY REALLLLLLLLY is.

and being an ignorant intollerant atheist is just as bad as being a moronic religious zealot. fact

 

[scarybunny]

Little kids believe in lots of things. Santa and the Easter Bunny, for one. Potentially God and Jesus and friends for another.

Kids are never told that their picture book stories are "just stories". They know. Why would they think any differently of bible stories, which are presented in the same way? Actually most of them go to scripture for the lollies. They don't really have the capacity to comprehend the nature of religion, to them God is no different to Santa in that they're watching you and want to see if you're naughty or nice. Going to hell and not receiving presents are on much the same level.

However, lots of adolescents would have crises of faith, I imagine. That's when they're trying to create their own identity, experimenting with new identities that may not gel with what their parents want, and they'd have to decide whether or not religion would be a part of it. By then, though, they're more capable of making a decision for themselves. They don't believe or follow everything their parents or teachers say, and religious beliefs would be part of this.

I don't know what I'm getting at. I think that by the time religion actually becomes meaningful, the person has made a conscious choice. I recited bible verses for lollies and sang jesus songs at easter for years, but it didn't make me religious. Exposure to pro or anti-religious stuff at school doesn't create beliefs, especially since any such exposure is very brief. It's the parents who have the power to force religion upon children, and there's nothing you can do about that.

 

[katie_tully]

As far as I can see Tully thinks the scripture we have at the moment is fine. I'd consider that to be pro-religious education.
"I think there is nothing wrong with scripture in primary school, and once a kid is old enough to make their own informed decision they can decide whether or not to become a raging atheist."

How about once a child is old enough to make their own informed decision then they can be introduced to scripture? If you're going to a public school in our *supposedly* secular education system (Well I mean.. It isn't theocratic or anything) that's how it should be. Same with religious schools not getting government funding. If you want to include religion to such a degree in a secular system it must be private. At high school I would say yes a religious education class is fine.

(continue reading for tangent)
HOWEVER from my experience while the teacher was a biased Christian who in not so many words said "Today we're learning about <insert religion here> which is inferior to Christianity and they're going to burn in hell." we at least had a proper religious studies class which educated us on many religions. My sisters however recently started school at Asquith Girls High School and they had "Christian Studies" not only that unlike my school (KCAHS) they tried to force them to take the class. (and let me tell you.. My father made short work of that idea) Is this acceptable in a public high school? No. Is a religious education class which discusses a diverse range of religions and which you can opt-out of without it being a big deal? Yes.
(The above is not in relation to your argument so much Tully)

Summary:
Primary School Scripture = bad
Government funded religious schools = bad
High School Religious Studies = good
"Christian Studies" in a public school = bad
Non opt-out religious classes = bad
Also:
Secular education = doubleplusgood

Good god (lol?) where do I start.

I'm pro religious education over bombarding kids with atheist dogma. I would much prefer the little kidlets to read Bible stories over this bullshit book that has been proposed.
If you had bothered to read it all, you would have seen this quote from me:

Personally I would aim for zero religious education in public schools, and thats of any denomination. Including atheist/agnostic related materials.

Why is a religious ed class fine in High School but not in Primary School? They made scripture compulsory in my (public high school) when I was in year 8. I can tell you it was a lot worse than primary school scipture. No longer were we learning about Bible stories, we were being told science is a lie and that the grand canyon was made in 3 days. I lasted 2 lessons before I was banned.

You can't be forced to take a religious ed class, unless you go to a religious school and have to do SOR in which cass SOR isn't Christians bashing you over the head. If your parents disagree with certain religious doctrines being imposed on their children then it's quite easy for parents to 'opt' their children out.

This is why I'm for religious ed in Primary abd against religious ed in HS.

 

[Enteebee]

im sorry (to whoever it was that disagreed that there isnt a bandwagon) but there really really REALLY REALLY REALLLLLLLLY is.

and being an ignorant intollerant atheist is just as bad as being a moronic religious zealot. fact

Yea, I tend to think atheism should come from uncertainty about the world.

 

[Slidey]

From what I remember, primary school scripture was not the same as having fundamentalist dogma forced down your throat.
1. Your parents pick the denomination you attend
2. It basically consists of colouring in pictures from Bible stories
Religious ed isn't going to kill a kid, and I think it's ludacris that they should then have bullshit like this thrown at them as well.

EDIT: The option to not attend primary scripture is there, unless you attend a religious school. I don't know why you're all so hell bent on making public schools so anti religion.

I agree. I found catholic primary school an incredibly fun, engaging and kind place.

 

[Rhanoct]

secular schools are superior

 

[Mabs]

Good god (lol?) where do I start.

I'm pro religious education over bombarding kids with atheist dogma. I would much prefer the little kidlets to read Bible stories over this bullshit book that has been proposed.
If you had bothered to read it all, you would have seen this quote from me:


Why is a religious ed class fine in High School but not in Primary School? They made scripture compulsory in my (public high school) when I was in year 8. I can tell you it was a lot worse than primary school scipture. No longer were we learning about Bible stories, we were being told science is a lie and that the grand canyon was made in 3 days. I lasted 2 lessons before I was banned.

This is why I'm for religious ed in Primary abd against religious ed in HS.

I never said bombard them with atheist dogma. I would much rather children weren't to read either. Although an atheist/non-religious book may be more acceptable due to the large religious majority in western society that a child is much more likely to need to learn about alternatives to religion than they are about religion itself.

Because by high school you should be able to use critical thinking an ability most children of primary school age haven't developed yet, which is why it is especially wrong for primary school.

It's better to be told that science is a lie and the grand canyon was made in 3 days when you're 16, than to be told the story of Jesus when you're 8. Children are impressionable and the sugar-coated and "fun" stories help lure them in. That's the problem, sure scripture in primary school might be "fun" but why do you think they make it fun?

"You can't be forced to take a religious ed class, unless you go to a religious school and have to do SOR in which cass SOR isn't Christians bashing you over the head. If your parents disagree with certain religious doctrines being imposed on their children then it's quite easy for parents to 'opt' their children out."

You can't be forced but i'm just saying some try to make out as if you have to do it. They should be totally transparent about it and tell you that you can opt-out.

 

[boris]

I won this argument a week ago. Why are you still arguing against me.

 

[MaNiElla]

Good god (lol?) where do I start.

Whoa...whatever happened to your account??!!!

 

[boris]

Whoa...whatever happened to your account??!!!

It was raped.

 

[Gay Captain]

It was raped.

by lebs

also ITT katie says it's ok to tell kids lies but telling them something true is dogmatic

 

[boris]

by lebs

also ITT katie says it's ok to tell kids lies but telling them something true is dogmatic

Liar.

 

[Mabs]

by lebs

also ITT katie says it's ok to tell kids lies but telling them something true is dogmatic

I lol'd

 

[Evan11]

You guys try too hard to be anti religion.

+1