Gay marriage in NSW/Australia (2 Viewers)

[absolution*]

Re: should gays be allowed to marry in NSW

If two gay guys/girls want to get married then how does it affect me?

Answer: it doesn't, nor does it matter to anyone else but those two people.

Assuming it doesn't affect you, I fail to see the point you are trying to make? Are you suggesting you should only input about things that affect you?

World hunger doesnt affect me, nor does people being tortured in Syria, or even global warming to an extent. It doesnt mean that I have to be ideologically ambivalent towards it though, waf. The same is true of a lot of things. This is where individual ethics come in, and if your liberalist philosophy overrides your Liberalist philosophy, then its fine to distance yourself from making a judgment on the issue. However, its a little disingenuous, considering your conservative values, to suggest an ongoing precedence based on extreme liberatarianism.

 

[Not-That-Bright]

Re: should gays be allowed to marry in NSW

I got to thinking, if that was how God intended it, what about other important yet controversial issues? What about abortion? Should the church rule that abortion is ok as long as it is not christians who are getting abortion's? Francis Schaeffer certainly didn't believe so, neither should I!

But then I realised I have this silly belief in a supernatural entity somewhere out there that turned all my logic into douche.

----

that the primary purpose of government encouragement of marriage is promoting families, and thus it is illogical to encourage gay marraige via financial assistance.

I don't believe that's the only reason why marriage is encouraged, I believe it also significantly has to do with the financial security of each person, particularily it used to be about the financial security of the female however these days it's seen as more of a partnership - people are more financially secure when drawing an income from two different jobs, they can invest more, yada yada..

The main thing I agree with is that it's probably truely fair to abolish all 'marriages' and turn them into nothing more than religious ceremonies, then focus more on the status of defacto relationships.

 

[Silver Persian]

Re: should gays be allowed to marry in NSW

World hunger doesnt affect me, nor does people being tortured in Syria, or even global warming to an extent. It doesnt mean that I have to be ideologically ambivalent towards it though, waf. The same is true of a lot of things. This is where individual ethics come in, and if your liberalist philosophy overrides your Liberalist philosophy, then its fine to distance yourself from making a judgment on the issue. However, its a little disingenuous, considering your conservative values, to suggest an ongoing precedence based on extreme liberatarianism.

Which would be a fair thing to say if homosexual marriage was hurting anybody else...which it isn't.

I agree that gay marriages should receive less tax concessions because it is less likely that they will have children, although if they adopt they should receive the same benefits as a straight couple.

And yes, while the primary social function of marriage is to promote marriage and then the socialisation of children (sorry ive just been reading my sociology textbook), I don't see why that has to stop people who aren't going to have children getting married. A lot of people claim that marriage is always between a man and a wooman because it just is, but meaning changes in relation to context (sorry, once again sociology ;( ) and there is no reason why the state can't alter the legal definition of marriage

Edit:Second sentence did not make sense

 

[Rorix]

Re: should gays be allowed to marry in NSW

He means that is not his business to deny the right for gay marriages, because he wouldn't need it because he is not gay and religious people who try and convince the government to forbid are obstructing them of their right as it does not affect them either.

There is no right to gay marriage to deny.

I don't see why that has to stop people who aren't going to have children getting married.

The point is not that everyone who gets married has children, it's just that as a general principle, in the majority of cases, marriage leads to children.

 

[Not-That-Bright]

Re: should gays be allowed to marry in NSW

I don't see why that has to stop people who aren't going to have children getting married. A lot of people claim that marriage is always between a man and a wooman because it just is, but meaning changes in relation to context (sorry, once again sociology ;( ) and there is no reason why the state can't alter the legal definition of marriage

Ok but the thing we're arguing about is whether marriage i.e. marriage benefits should be given to gays - people against this are pointing out that their reasoning behind this is that the purpose of these incentives are to create children / stable families.

 

[Silver Persian]

Re: should gays be allowed to marry in NSW

Well, I guess if gay couples adopt children they should be given the same benefits?

 

[withoutaface]

Re: should gays be allowed to marry in NSW

Assuming it doesn't affect you, I fail to see the point you are trying to make? Are you suggesting you should only input about things that affect you?

Why is this? While I agree with you somewhat along liberalist philosophy, in this case I don't really think it's an issue. The main area of policy debate is whether or not gay couples should recieve the legal recognition from the State of their union, recieve financial benefits etc.

Why should any married couple receive financial benefits? Why should a gay couple pay taxes to contribute to the benefits for a union they'll never be able to enjoy?

World hunger doesnt affect me, nor does people being tortured in Syria, or even global warming to an extent.

These things obviously cause suffering to others, and as such falls in a different category to victimless activities such as gay marriage.

It doesnt mean that I have to be ideologically ambivalent towards it though, waf. The same is true of a lot of things. This is where individual ethics come in, and if your liberalist philosophy overrides your Liberalist philosophy, then its fine to distance yourself from making a judgment on the issue. However, its a little disingenuous, considering your conservative values, to suggest an ongoing precedence based on extreme liberatarianism.

I didn't actually not make a judgement on the issue, sorry if it came across that way. I was saying "it doesn't hurt me, nor does it hurt anyone else, so what business of mine is it to stop it?".

 

[loquasagacious]

Re: should gays be allowed to marry in NSW

I think this issue is unduly muddled by the image of marriage as a religous 'thing', that somehow if a gay couple marries they are gate-crashing a christian party...

Marriage may have begun as a religous thing (though this is open to debate eg whether it is itself religious or merely the co-opting/legitimising/recognition of a pre-existing practise by religion), however this is no longer the case.

In todays society marriage is NOT a religous domain. It is a matter for the state and the state authorises religions to perform marriages but also non-religious celebrants. A marriage today may or may not be religious that is entirely the choosing of the couple.

Having said this why exactly should a gay couple not be allowed to marry in a civil service performed by a celebrant? Or for that matter by a priest/etc of a religion that accepts gay marriage. I am not suggesting that a gay couple be able to force a priest to wed them, just as a priest can decline to wed a straight couple they can decline a gay couple.

To deny a gay couple the right to marriage (and I do believe it to be a right - drawn from a right equality, freedom of association and freedom of religion) is to put it bluntly homophobic. It sends a very simple message: "you are not equal", to deny gay marriage is to deny a fundamental level of equality, infact in some ways this borders on a form of segregation - though not physically segregated this is an enforced seperation from mainstream society in a cultural/societal sense.

 

[ihavenothing]

Re: should gays be allowed to marry in NSW

Marriage has existed before traditional religions anyway, who are they to judge?

 

[shady_03]

Re: should gays be allowed to marry in NSW

They should be allowed 2 do wateva they want, i dont see ne problem in them marrying. Wats the big deal about gay marriages? They are already 2getha, so a legally binding document saying their married doesnt change a thing

 

[Mrs.McDreamy]

Re: should gays be allowed to marry in NSW

To deny gay marriage is to completely disregard or fail to acknowledge a love between two people. Religion and economic policy aside, the underlying statement is that homosexuality is wrong, or that it doesn't exist. Both of these statements are untrue. Today we are taught in schools to be accepting of peoples differences, not to mention the government has very strong opinions on racism. Yet they do not allow gays to marry. I fail to see their moral justification. This is after all a free, multicultural country, accepting of all religious posts of view, and all personal lifestyles.

 

[ur_inner_child]

Re: should gays be allowed to marry in NSW

To deny gay marriage is to completely disregard or fail to acknowledge a love between two people. Religion and economic policy aside, the underlying statement is that homosexuality is wrong, or that it doesn't exist. Both of these statements are untrue. Today we are taught in schools to be accepting of peoples differences, not to mention the government has very strong opinions on racism. Yet they do not allow gays to marry. I fail to see their moral justification. This is after all a free, multicultural country, accepting of all religious posts of view, and all personal lifestyles.

that is a very well-constructed, eloquent and splendid post there! esp for a person just doing their hsc this year. I dont think very much of the younger ones, but my my, there is hope in you dear one.

 

[olchik]

Re: should gays be allowed to marry in NSW

Thank you for your input. Many on these forums are lacking the clarity and conciseness that your posts possess. May I humbly request that you post more often on these forums? I very much enjoy your posts, and think they set a standard we should aspire to.

Thanks for your so nice attitude to me! I'll try to post more !

 

[Rorix]

Re: should gays be allowed to marry in NSW

Why should any married couple receive financial benefits?

Because marriage is the foremost way of raising the next generation in our society. And the government's key purposes, or one of its key purposes, is providing for the next generation.

Why should a gay couple pay taxes to contribute to the benefits for a union they'll never be able to enjoy?

Well, to be technical, everyone benefits from the next generation up to a point where it becomes overcrowded. I believe Turnbell cites the aging population as the single greatest thread to our living standards in the future - although this might be somewhat alarmist. The same article I vaguely recall a forecast of 40% lower GDP/capita by 2050, although I can't be sure of the numbers and this is almost impossible to forecast anyway. But the point that the next generation supports the current generation in the future cannot be ignored.

Regardless, on a more general term, everyone in society makes certain sacrifices for the good of the whole, and not even the most extreme liberal would deny the place of the government to provide some essential services. Providing for the next generation is not as trivial as childcare at Sydney University.



To the entire thread: The thing which gives the most equality is the total removal of any government recognition of marriage. Not only does the current idea of marriage not gel too well with homosexuals (technically it doesn't discriminate but its an academic point) but it also, having roots in religion, does not gel with some other religions and athiests etc. etc. The most egalitarian thing to do is just totally not recognise marriage. This debate has never been about 'gay love', marriage is not love, and I challenge anyone to dispute otherwise.

 

[withoutaface]

Re: should gays be allowed to marry in NSW

Well, to be technical, everyone benefits from the next generation up to a point where it becomes overcrowded. I believe Turnbell cites the aging population as the single greatest thread to our living standards in the future - although this might be somewhat alarmist. The same article I vaguely recall a forecast of 40% lower GDP/capita by 2050, although I can't be sure of the numbers and this is almost impossible to forecast anyway. But the point that the next generation supports the current generation in the future cannot be ignored.

Why does the next generation need to provide for the current generation? Why can't we gradually phase out old age pensions for people who earned above $x in their lifetime, and make it painfully clear to the current generation that they will have to rely on their own earnings to provide for their future. This then eliminates the need to fund marriages etc.

 

[blondie00]

Re: should gays be allowed to marry in NSW

Yes. Although this discussion has been talked to death.

Ideally I would prefer marriage in the legal sense to be renamed to civil union, allow same sex couples to take out a civil union, and a marriage can be a church sanctioned ceremony, where the church can exclude divorcees or whoever else they want from being married.

xayma knows what his talking bout.. that makes sense.. its their life they love their partner deeply enough to marry why not? australia is not a completely religious country. things need to move on. we cant be trapped in the past of this man and woman idea. in america they have a school exclusively for gays and lesbians, although it might be closed due to legal reasons they still have made ground. i think gay and lesbians should be treated like any other citizen that wishes to commit.

 

[withoutaface]

Re: should gays be allowed to marry in NSW

Gay marriage = one more source of PC bullshit that the people will have to put up with.

You can argue that marijuana should be legalized as well, but it isn't

Marijuana should be legalised.

 

[withoutaface]

Re: should gays be allowed to marry in NSW

No it shouldn't.

Look at the people who take it. LOW LIFES. That's who.

Nationalism should be banned. Look at the people who advocate it! Low lives, every last one of them.

 

[Not-That-Bright]

Re: should gays be allowed to marry in NSW

That's because you already characterise people who take marijuana as lowlifes... it's not like if we gave you 5 people and told you about them, you could pick out who is the marijuana users - you're begging the question with your logic and you're a tool.

 

[Captain Gh3y]

Re: should gays be allowed to marry in NSW

There's a good reason for not legalising marijuana because of the extra burden on the mental health system it would create. And yet, something like 99% of the existing burden on the health, mental health, policing and other systems are pretty much entirely due to alcohol already...

Anyway, gay marriage should be entirely legalised, with churches allowed to not marry gays if they don't want to.