Euthanasia (2 Viewers)

[withoutaface]

Re: Should Euthanasia Be Legalised?

I feel I've covered all that needs to be said in the few paragraphs I've posted. In summary:
1. Yes, there is a chance of recovery, however if the person to be euthanased is informed of this and still decides they want to die because the chance is far too slim, then that's their prerogative. People will drive a car despite the consequences of being involved in a severe crash being of far greater magnitude than those of walking to work. The principle is the same, there's a <1% chance that their choice is horribly, horribly wrong, but they take a calculated risk and will usually come out on top.
2. The concept of ownership of one's body comes about because we have a few possibilities:
a) I own my body.
b) the government owns my body.
c) my body belongs to God.
Now I happen to believe the first one to be true, and logically we extend ownership to a dominion over the use of it. In other words, I'm allowed to reside in my house, I'm allowed to drive my car. But I'm also allowed to knock my house down and crush my car into a little cube. My body is just another piece of property, albeit the most important thing I own.
3. Arguments that my right to choose a painless death is nonexistent on the basis that millions of people starve every year are fallacious. Most of the world doesn't have the internet, therefore I shouldn't be allowed on the internet. Most of the world doesn't have a university education, therefore I shouldn't have a university education.

 

[KFunk]

Re: Should Euthanasia Be Legalised?

A question WAF, do you think that we own ourselves from the moment of conception, or do we gain ownership at some developmental stage?

 

[Not-That-Bright]

Re: Should Euthanasia Be Legalised?

I do strongly feel WAF needs to make a proviso to exclude those suffering a temporary displacement of the mind, have mental illness or are otherwise not in the position to make such a decision. In such cases I still feel euthanasia is possible, just that a more objective criteria (i.e. the pain they will suffer, their families wishes, how terminal their situation is).

In practical effect I'm probably going to be placing a similar objective criteria on people by excluding those suffering termporary losses of their mind (i.e. in an extreme rage) having mental illness etc - But I do feel it's a better accademic justification.

 

[withoutaface]

Re: Should Euthanasia Be Legalised?

A question WAF, do you think that we own ourselves from the moment of conception, or do we gain ownership at some developmental stage?

Individual choice is only real when we have the capacity to exercise it, and that of course excludes children and the mentally handicapped from making 100% of their own decisions.

 

[banco55]

Re: Should Euthanasia Be Legalised?

I own my life, and I'll take it if I feel like it. If I'm told there's a 99% chance I'll suffer from excruciating pain for the next six months then die vs a 1% chance I'll survive for another 10 years and get through this pain, I would choose to take my life, and I don't see what basis you have to question my decision, unless you believe that you have jurisdiction over something which belongs to me.

Fine. Go to the Gap and jump, slit your wrists, OD on pills, step in front of a bus whatever just don't ask the state to sanction it and assist you in committing suicide.

 

[trustmenever]

Re: Should euthanasia be legalised?

yes it should be legalised.
we need to get rid of people coz the world population is increasing at an increasing rate.

 

[dieburndie]

Re: Should Euthanasia Be Legalised?

Fine. Go to the Gap and jump, slit your wrists, OD on pills, step in front of a bus whatever just don't ask the state to sanction it and assist you in committing suicide.

If it's fine, why not ask the state to sanction it?

Also, how do athiests etc feel about the sanctity of life argument?
I've stated in other topics that I don't believe in the 'sanctity of life' because believing that while not believing in a god is a logical contradiction.
That is the only basis I use for that belief, yet the disbelief that life is somehow sacred seems to mean to some people that anything is permissible and it is impossible for me to have any morals concerning this sort of thing.
I don't know if that's taking this off topic a bit though.

 

[Not-That-Bright]

Re: Should Euthanasia Be Legalised?

Fine. Go to the Gap and jump, slit your wrists, OD on pills, step in front of a bus whatever just don't ask the state to sanction it and assist you in committing suicide.

So you believe we should all be vigilantes? I want to do X, the state says X is wrong - But who cares, instead of asking them to change their opinion I'm just going to go ahead and do X anyway. To ask people to just carry on doing euthanasia where it's illegal and their supporters are likely to be prosecuted (though they have much sympathy from our courts) is to effectively argue to stop euthanasia happening at all. This is because the best prevention you have is the law, you're not changing anything by saying "It's ok, if you have a problem with it - Just break the law".

It would be like telling black schoolkids in the 1950's "Fine. Go ahead and mingle with white kids if you want - But don't ask the state to sanction/assist you in doing so". They're arguing that they want to be able to do something and you're telling them they can, they just have to be prepared to face the consequences... which is silly because what they're asking for is to be able to the thing without the consequences in the first place. You may as well have simply said "NO".

Also, how do athiests etc feel about the sanctity of life argument?
I've stated in other topics that I don't believe in the 'sanctity of life' because believing that while not believing in a god is a logical contradiction.
That is the only basis I use for that belief, yet the disbelief that life is somehow sacred seems to mean to some people that anything is permissible and it is impossible for me to have any morals concerning this sort of thing.
I don't know if that's taking this off topic a bit though.

While ultimately believing there's no such 'sanctity of life' I am an empathetic human being and as such I want there to be one, so it's a perfectly reasonable collective construct imo. Human life is sacred because we've evolved to acknowledge that - as an advantage.

 

[dieburndie]

Re: Should Euthanasia Be Legalised?

While ultimately believing there's no such 'sanctity of life' I am an empathetic human being and as such I want there to be one, so it's a perfectly reasonable collective construct imo. Human life is sacred because we've evolved to acknowledge that - as an advantage.

So you're prefectly comfortable with a concept you believe to be false dictating society to it's benefit?
i.e You believe then end justifies the (false) means?

It doesn't have to be sacred for it to be valued purely because of what benefits life is tangibly able to produce. If you get my meaning.
Justifying such sanctity when you know it is has no basis does not make sense to me.

 

[Not-That-Bright]

Re: Should Euthanasia Be Legalised?

So you're prefectly comfortable with a concept you believe to be false dictating society to it's benefit?

No - More that all our concepts of morals etc are ultimately false, but we cannot remove them from the decision makers of our society (nor would we necessarily want to).

Justifying such sanctity when you know it is has no basis does not make sense to me.

Oh well I do think you need to provide a basis. I think we imagine human life is sacred because we have empathy, the golden rule of do unto others as you would have them do unto you.

 

[dieburndie]

Re: Should Euthanasia Be Legalised?

No - More that all our concepts of morals etc are ultimately false, but we cannot remove them from the decision makers of our society (nor would we necessarily want to).

So you believe that if the decision makers of our society were athiests, and acted according to that belief, or lack thereof, it would be harmful?

 

[Not-That-Bright]

Re: Should Euthanasia Be Legalised?

No, I just believe the decision makers (atheist, believer, whatever) have morals and make decisions based off of those morals daily.

 

[banco55]

Re: Should Euthanasia Be Legalised?

So you believe we should all be vigilantes? I want to do X, the state says X is wrong - But who cares, instead of asking them to change their opinion I'm just going to go ahead and do X anyway. To ask people to just carry on doing euthanasia where it's illegal and their supporters are likely to be prosecuted (though they have much sympathy from our courts) is to effectively argue to stop euthanasia happening at all. This is because the best prevention you have is the law, you're not changing anything by saying &quot;It's ok, if you have a problem with it - Just break the law&quot;.

It would be like telling black schoolkids in the 1950's &quot;Fine. Go ahead and mingle with white kids if you want - But don't ask the state to sanction/assist you in doing so&quot;. They're arguing that they want to be able to do something and you're telling them they can, they just have to be prepared to face the consequences... which is silly because what they're asking for is to be able to the thing without the consequences in the first place. You may as well have simply said &quot;NO&quot;.



While ultimately believing there's no such 'sanctity of life' I am an empathetic human being and as such I want there to be one, so it's a perfectly reasonable collective construct imo. Human life is sacred because we've evolved to acknowledge that - as an advantage.

I was referring specifically to your reference to a "right" to kill yourself. It's amazing how the number of 'rights' seem to increase every year. The state isn't preventing you from killing yourself now. It's preventing others assisting you in your suicidal ambitions which is quite different.

 

[sassygirl]

Re: Should Euthanasia Be Legalised?

i find euthanasia a really hard topic to decide on, because of all the different circumstances. i dont think that "extreme cases" decided on by ppl who dont know u is fair. the situation is hard on everyone, including friends and family, but it is just as hard for them to watch someone that they love die in poain when they no there is baasically only 1% survival rate, and even then, well....
personally, i think that it should be. ppl are however, going to do it wether or not it is sanctioned... and i guess seeing as suicide is legal, and euthanasia is a form of suicide....
plus, i believe that a person can make the choice when they weigh up thier circumstances for themselves. i cant imagine a stranger saying, "sorry, u have a 2% chance of survival, you cant euthanise yourself" i mean what do they really know about my circumstances?
but hey, each to their own. all entitled to own choice... but does that include euthanasia???

 

[Not-That-Bright]

Re: Should Euthanasia Be Legalised?

It's amazing how the number of 'rights' seem to increase every year

It's terrible isn't it?

 

[KFunk]

Re: Should Euthanasia Be Legalised?

Individual choice is only real when we have the capacity to exercise it, and that of course excludes children and the mentally handicapped from making 100% of their own decisions.

A few questions about cases where an individual cannot make 100% their own decisions:

- What determines whether or not someone has the capacity to exercise choice?

- When deciding for someone, what rules can we use to decide appropriately? If we are trying to choose that which is in their 'best interests' then who determines what constitutes their 'best interests'?

 

[InDiAn.PrInCeSs]

Re: Should euthanasia be legalised?

i don't think it should be legalised bcoz it goes against the christian beliefs

 

[KFunk]

Re: Should Euthanasia Be Legalised?

No - More that all our concepts of morals etc are ultimately false, but we cannot remove them from the decision makers of our society (nor would we necessarily want to).

I would use the term 'relative' rather than 'false'. Our personal moral rules can still retain validity despite not being absolute ones.

Oh well I do think you need to provide a basis. I think we imagine human life is sacred because we have empathy, the golden rule of do unto others as you would have them do unto you.

Something you might want to check out is a Peter Singer book called 'How are we to live?'. In particular there is a section where he looks at how common moral beliefs could come about through evolution and/or self-interest. One thing which is considered is the prisoner's dilemma and its treatment by game theorists. Many different prisoner's dilemma strategies have been pitted against each other (using computer models) and it has been found that the most successful strategy in a prisoner's dilemma game (game variations excepted) is 'tit-for-tat'. Tit-for-tat involves starting off being cooperative and then, in each subsequent round, doing whatever the other player just did - i.e. cooperating if they just cooperated, and defecting if they just defected.

Given that tit-for-tat is at the top of the heap statistically it should be unsuprising that it roughly models our sense of morality. For example, common morality generally supports the idea that good will should be met with good will and, with more variability, that it is appropriate to punish cruel actions. This reflects the 'symetrical response' aspect of the tit-for-tat strategy and is fairly similar to the 'eye for an eye' mentality.

It is also worth noting that the tit-for-tat strategy involves starting off 'nice', which perhaps reflects something similar to the 'do unto others as you would have them do unto you' rule which you invoked above. I suggest this link because what constitutes 'nice' is dependent on a person's individual sense of morality and would likely be informed by their own treatment preferences.

I should point out that I don't see evolutionary tendency as a form of moral justification, all I am trying to illustrate is how certain rules might come about. Of particular interest is the idea that such 'rules' are more likely to be commonly held amongst different cultures and social groups, yielding the potential to construct some kind of common morality (or, at the least, providing common ground to stand on).

 

[HotShot]

Re: Should Euthanasia Be Legalised?

A few questions about cases where an individual cannot make 100% their own decisions:

- What determines whether or not someone has the capacity to exercise choice?

- When deciding for someone, what rules can we use to decide appropriately? If we are trying to choose that which is in their 'best interests' then who determines what constitutes their 'best interests'?

its interesting - we have wills, all sorts of contracts and you are saying we cannot implement a system that will allow someone else to give the right to terminate their friend/relative?

 

[KFunk]

Re: Should Euthanasia Be Legalised?

its interesting - we have wills, all sorts of contracts and you are saying we cannot implement a system that will allow someone else to give the right to terminate their friend/relative?

No, that's a different kind of situation. A will represents a choice that we have made previously. You're infering too much.