Euthanasia (2 Viewers)

[prichardson]

I don't want to draw lines, because moral lines are made to be blurry and crossable.


So I'll say I support euthanasia generally. If you've got a terminal illness and you're ready to die, who am I to say you're not?

That's the thing with giving this topic something which resembles individual analysis (ie. mental state etc.) The question is how do we decide, and who? Are we going to have a case study manager for each applicant for euthinisation? Is their decision right? What is the input of family?

I have no idea how you would resolve issues like those.

Also OP was saying something about places this is legal... Switzerland, I think? Somewhere in Skandanavian/Central-Western Europe. [EDIT] -there was an insight episode on this issue a few months back. That was fairly informative. Don't know how you'd go about finding it, however.

Anyway, I agree with the idea of euthinisation but like I say; no idea how it would be put into law. Can you imagine the red tape and by-laws? A nightmare.

Thus- if there is a serious illness or the like which happens to me, I'll just be writing a note and having a few too many panadol. Although, since I don't plan on dying any time soon, I have a sneaking suspicion that things may change between now and then.

 

[^CoSMic DoRiS^^]

I don't really know where I stand on this. If someone is terminally ill and in so much pain that they can't stand it anymore, then I'd be for it on compassionate grounds. Someone said before that it's hard to determine what actually constitutes enough pain to warrant euthanasia (or words to that effect cbf going back to quote it), but I think it's such a personal thing that you can't really stand back and say "you're not in enough pain, I can't help you to end your life." What would you know about it? You're not the one going through it. You don't know how much pain this person is experiencing.

On the other hand, if its a terminal illness but the discomfort can be managed well enough that they can pass away naturally without a horrible struggle, then even if the patient expressed a desire to be euthanised (edit: if they expressed a desire to be euthanised even though by their own admission they were not in a large amount of pain) I don't think I could support it. Or, no, okay I would support their right to choose what happens to their body and if they want to be euthanised then good on them but I couldn't be the person to administer the injection or whatever. I'd feel like a murderer no matter what the stated intention of the person was in regards to their body. In the case of terminal, unbearably painful illness I wouldn't have that problem.

Not that I'll probably ever be euthanising anybody, but that's how I feel about it at this point...

 

[Enteebee]

Someone said before that it's hard to determine what actually constitutes enough pain to warrant euthanasia (or words to that effect cbf going back to quote it), but I think it's such a personal thing that you can't really stand back and say "you're not in enough pain, I can't help you to end your life." What would you know about it? You're not the one going through it. You don't know how much pain this person is experiencing.

The thing is... with modern palliative care, most of these 'pains' can be taken away without taking away their life - For most people.

 

[*TRUE*]

The thing is... with modern palliative care, most of these 'pains' can be taken away without taking away their life - For most people.

Some people dont want to die by suffocation & not all pain can be taken away...how about them...

 

[Enteebee]

Some people dont want to die by suffocation & not all pain can be taken away...how about them...

Well... actually all our medical information supports that all pain can in the vast majority of cases be taken away.

What do you mean don't want to die from suffocation? If they're sick enough to require a lot of pain management chances are they won't even be conscious for their last dying moments.

 

[*TRUE*]

BUT - Also I think that we cant simply look at the deontological ethics of the matter... have to look at what the 'afterall' consequences might be...
So i think really euthanasia is something i would want to see utilised only after the subjective evaluation of each case.. Even though that would stink in alot of cases too.....

 

[^CoSMic DoRiS^^]

The thing is... with modern palliative care, most of these 'pains' can be taken away without taking away their life - For most people.

"Most" being the operative word there. Sometimes even with the best care available a dying person cannot be made comfortable enough to live out the rest of their days in relative peace.

On that note not everybody has access to great palliative care. It can be expensive depending on what's actually required.

Also I'd probably prefer to die than know I was going to be spending the rest of my life drugged to the eyeballs or hooked up to machines that helped me perform basic bodily functions. I might not be in pain but that's not a life worth living, imo.

 

[Enteebee]

"Most" being the operative word there. Sometimes even with the best care available a dying person cannot be made comfortable enough to live out the rest of their days in relative peace.

Yeah true.

On that note not everybody has access to great palliative care. It can be expensive depending on what's actually required.

Perhaps it's society's duty to either grant you access or allow you to die.

Also I'd probably prefer to die than know I was going to be spending the rest of my life drugged to the eyeballs or hooked up to machines that helped me perform basic bodily functions. I might not be in pain but that's not a life worth living, imo.

The life you'd be living might be along the lines of some pleasurable dream, not too bad a way to go.

 

[sam04u]

I might not be in pain but that's not a life worth living, imo..

It depends on your beliefs.

If you believe in God then depending on your religion it may be a sin to take your own life away, or in some cases it may be a sin to preserve your life. If that's the case, then in terms of worth or not worth, it may very well be worth living.

Then there is the second option, a person who doesn't believe in God. In order to determine "value" or "worth", one must find the value or worth of all entities.

Considering there is no "God", (which I personally do not believe) the Universe has existed for billions of years, whereas at most, to our knowledge, humans can only exist for a maximum of about 110 years, or around that age.

So even if we take a ridiculously small number for the existence of the universe, and your life. We see that, of 1000000000 years, only 100 or so of those years can be spent alive. Life is a rare and shortlived phenomena for a single being. Considering you have a whole eternity to not exist, and at most 110 years of life. Surely, the rarer, more precious phenomena of life has a greater worth than an ever existing, infinite, nothingness.

So you're completely and utterly wrong in saying any "life is not worth living", it's worth it all right.

 

[^CoSMic DoRiS^^]

Perhaps it's society's duty to either grant you access or allow you to die.

Interesting idea. I'd like to see it happen, one way or another. It doesn't strike me as fair that your right to choose death over intolerable pain is blocked every step of the way when if palliative care was available to everybody there'd be fewer people put in that position in the first place. I don't really know enough about it to judge further than that though.

The life you'd be living might be along the lines of some pleasurable dream, not too bad a way to go.

lol maybe...the idea that that's all that's keeping me alive is kind of disturbing though. I'm not sure if I'd rather just end my life myself, if the only thing standing between me and death is a machine. Hopefully I'll never have to know. How far can you go to keep someone alive before it becomes less about the actual person and their feelings and more about someone else's moral panic over the idea that someone could choose to end their life? E.g. I'm all for keeping someone alive if there's a chance, however small, that they may actually pull through and keep living, but if they are really going to die I'm not sure I agree with pulling out everything possible to prolong the life of someone who is never going to recover. Unless that's what they want, of course.

 

[russianROULETTE]

I am against giving someone something to kill them to end there pain.
I am for turning off the life support if that is all that is keeping them alive and there is absolutly no chance for recovery if it was to remain on.

yeah, live and let suffer, that's the humane approach

 

[Enteebee]

lol maybe...the idea that that's all that's keeping me alive is kind of disturbing though. I'm not sure if I'd rather just end my life myself, if the only thing standing between me and death is a machine. Hopefully I'll never have to know. How far can you go to keep someone alive before it becomes less about the actual person and their feelings and more about someone else's moral panic over the idea that someone could choose to end their life? E.g. I'm all for keeping someone alive if there's a chance, however small, that they may actually pull through and keep living, but if they are really going to die I'm not sure I agree with pulling out everything possible to prolong the life of someone who is never going to recover. Unless that's what they want, of course.

It's not about pro-longing life, just alleviating the pain... in a lot of cases this actually leads to a shortened lifespan. I don't mean hook people up to machines, I think if they're in great pain and have no chance for survival we should have them off most machines, however at the same time we should be making their death pleasurable.

So it's basically:

Reasonable chance of survival - No Euthanasia.
Reasonable chance that the drugs will not be able to alleviate the pain - Euthanasia.
Reasonable chance of no survival and pain which can be alleviated - No Euthanasia, No life support, Palliative pain management.

 

[^CoSMic DoRiS^^]

It depends on your beliefs.

If you believe in God then depending on your religion it may be a sin to take your own life away, or in some cases it may be a sin to preserve your life. If that's the case, then in terms of worth or not worth, it may very well be worth living.

Then there is the second option, a person who doesn't believe in God. In order to determine "value" or "worth", one must find the value or worth of all entities.

Considering there is no "God", (which I personally do not believe) the Universe has existed for billions of years, whereas at most, to our knowledge, humans can only exist for a maximum of about 110 years, or around that age.

So even if we take a ridiculously small number for the existence of the universe, and your life. We see that, of 1000000000 years, only 100 or so of those years can be spent alive. Life is a rare and shortlived phenomena for a single being. Considering you have a whole eternity to not exist, and at most 110 years of life. Surely, the rarer, more precious phenomena of life has a greater worth than an ever existing, infinite, nothingness.

So you're completely and utterly wrong in saying any "life is not worth living", it's worth it all right.

I get what you're saying about comparing an eternity of nothing to the short life you have to live. All I was saying was that personally I would not consider a life spent in pain that could not be relieved or in a constant struggle to stay alive worth it. That's only my opinion, it's not like I'm going to force someone else in that situation to die if they didn't want to. I just think I'd rather be dead.

 

[^CoSMic DoRiS^^]

It's not about pro-longing life, just alleviating the pain... in a lot of cases this actually leads to a shortened lifespan. I don't mean hook people up to machines, I think if they're in great pain and have no chance for survival we should have them off most machines, however at the same time we should be making their death pleasurable.

So it's basically:

Reasonable chance of survival - No Euthanasia.
Reasonable chance that the drugs will not be able to alleviate the pain - Euthanasia.
Reasonable chance of no survival and pain which can be alleviated - No Euthanasia, No life support, Palliative pain management.

I agree, if the patient's pain can be relieved to a point where they can live in relative comfort and pass away when it's time to go without a struggle or discomfort, then by all means, go ahead. If that can't be done, or the only way to remove pain is to put them in a coma or something, then I'd be more inclined to say euthanasia is a better option, provided it's what the person wants for themselves (I certainly don't agree with the decision being made for you without any input from you either beforehand or at the time).

edit: agree with the rest of that post also

 

[sam04u]

I get what you're saying about comparing an eternity of nothing to the short life you have to live. All I was saying was that personally I would not consider a life spent in pain that could not be relieved or in a constant struggle to stay alive worth it. That's only my opinion, it's not like I'm going to force someone else in that situation to die if they didn't want to. I just think I'd rather be dead.

Well, as a theist, mortal pain is nothing compared to hell.
And if I was an atheist, the rare phenomena that is pain (even rarer than life really) is still worth more than nothingness.

 

[*TRUE*]

Well, as a theist, mortal pain is nothing compared to hell.
And if I was an atheist, the rare phenomena that is pain (even rarer than life really) is still worth more than nothingness.

Im with you here too
But from a purely ethical & irreligious point of view....

 

[^CoSMic DoRiS^^]

Well, as a theist, mortal pain is nothing compared to hell.
And if I was an atheist, the rare phenomena that is pain (even rarer than life really) is still worth more than nothingness.

I'm not really thinking about it from a perspective of theism vs atheism tbh. I don't think it's that relevant (certainly it's not irrelevant, I just don't have it at the forefront of my reasoning for my position on this).

When I'm dead, I'm not going to know or care about anything. I'll be dead. That's it, that's the end, nothing, bla bla bla.

Knowing this, I'd much prefer to simply die than live a life of suffering when I don't believe i'm going anywhere after I die. Perhaps if I were religious I'd see it differently, but considering I don't think there's an afterlife, or anything, after death I can't see the point of dragging out a life that's only going to cause me grief and intense discomfort. A theist would see euthanasia as a sin and thus would stick it out because they want to get to heaven basically. I don't and I don't have any problem with euthanasia if it's the only way to give someone a quick, humane death.

 

[sam04u]

Knowing this, I'd much prefer to simply die than live a life of suffering when I don't believe i'm going anywhere after I die.

You see now you're devaluing your own experiences in life (another big error). If you compare experiencing life with pain, to experiencing a life without pain. A life with without pain is much favourable when in that position.

But If I told you now, you have a choice of living 100 years in pain, or having never lived at all. Surely, living in pain is still better than not living at all.

 

[^CoSMic DoRiS^^]

You see now you're devaluing your own experiences in life (another big error). If you compare experiencing life with pain, to experiencing a life without pain. A life with without pain is much favourable when in that position.

But If I told you now, you have a choice of living 100 years in pain, or having never lived at all. Surely, living in pain is still better than not living at all.

No it isn't, not to me. If you told me I had a choice between dying now, or living another hundred years in pain, I'd be likely to take death. Obviously it's dependent on how much pain I'm going to be living in - if you mean pain as in having arthritis or something which can be effectively managed so that I can actually live without pain, then fine, I'll take my hundred years.

If you're asking me whether a life of intense suffering is better than death, though, I'd prefer to die.

 

[Kwayera]

I'm not really thinking about it from a perspective of theism vs atheism tbh. I don't think it's that relevant (certainly it's not irrelevant, I just don't have it at the forefront of my reasoning for my position on this).

When I'm dead, I'm not going to know or care about anything. I'll be dead. That's it, that's the end, nothing, bla bla bla.

Knowing this, I'd much prefer to simply die than live a life of suffering when I don't believe i'm going anywhere after I die. Perhaps if I were religious I'd see it differently, but considering I don't think there's an afterlife, or anything, after death I can't see the point of dragging out a life that's only going to cause me grief and intense discomfort. A theist would see euthanasia as a sin and thus would stick it out because they want to get to heaven basically. I don't and I don't have any problem with euthanasia if it's the only way to give someone a quick, humane death.

My thoughts exactly.

And sam04u, just because life is indeed fulfilling and we like living, I don't think a life bedridden and in pain is a life at all. I'd rather die, too.