Drugs kill daughter, parents blame unscrupulous people for taking advantage of her (3 Viewers)

[incentivation]

Re: Drugs kill daughter, parents blame unscrupulous people for taking advantage of he

Being uninformed is at least as bad.

Of course.

 

[jtyler]

Re: Drugs kill daughter, parents blame unscrupulous people for taking advantage of he

And bias isn't an issue?

I assume your opposition to criminal law as a mechanism to maintain social order would equally apply to workplace relations law, anti-discrimination law and other areas of law which prevent the causing of undue harm or exploitation?

Everyone has their biases, if the argument is coherent (apparently a rarity here), what difference does it make?

And no, my opposition to criminal law as a social instrument extends only to the implementations that have been 'not working' for 20+ years. Crazy, huh. Supposing that the criminal law should be the only (or major) form of social protection is a philosophical circlejerk, inefficient and impossible. Regardless, drug laws set themselves aside from those protecting others from "undue harm and exploitation" by the simple fact that they don't properly protect anyone. We've had the laws that protect against the negative effects of drug use for a very, very long time (noting that oneself cannot be the victim - unless you're an inept pro-nanny state idiot).

Custodial sentences are rarely utilised for possession offences.

I was talking about the US, and thanks to three-strike laws there are plenty of examples of imprisonment for low-level possession/use (to say nothing of the money wasted in enforcement in cases that don't make it this far) - feel free to look up the figures. I even remember a case off the top of my head about a bloke who was paralyzed, in a wheelchair, and arrested after using marijuana medicinally. Received a custodial sentence and died in prison. The fact is it shouldn't be happening at all.

 

[Riet]

Re: Drugs kill daughter, parents blame unscrupulous people for taking advantage of he

The majority of those supporting decriminalization are users?

I don't see that. I see that the majority of people defending it have tried it, realised it's not that spectacular, and don't do it anymore.
Edit: But realise that since people are going to do it anyway, why not have tax money go to the government and make it safer for users instead of keeping it dangerous and handing the profits to Abdullah and his mate who did chemistry for a couple of years, out in Western Sydney.

 

[Monstar]

Re: Drugs kill daughter, parents blame unscrupulous people for taking advantage of he

ping driving?

sup dawg. We heard you like cars so we put a car in yo car so you can drive while you drive.

 

[Graney]

Re: Drugs kill daughter, parents blame unscrupulous people for taking advantage of he

I assume your opposition to criminal law as a mechanism to maintain social order would equally apply to workplace relations law, anti-discrimination law and other areas of law which prevent the causing of undue harm or exploitation?

Yes to the mentioned examples. I don't think government intervention is a good idea in workplace relations or anti-discrimination law, and would prefer them scrapped.

But that is another thread.

To throw one back at you, would you be in favor of the banning of motorcycles on public roads, to protect these users from themselves? There is no need for anyone to ride motorcycles in modern Australia, they are responsible for a hugely disproportionate number of fatalities.

What comes first, the malum in se crimes of break and enter and larceny, or the malum prohibitum crime of drug possession? Does the drug use itself cause individuals to commit the intrinsically 'evil' crimes?

Other than the crime of drug possession itself, I wasn't aware of any causative link between crime and MDMA use.

I see the impact of illicit drug use everyday.

I thought you said it was really difficult to find anyone who would even know where to get pills?

However, I've long stood by the proposition that alcohol, the legal drug, causes the greatest number of problems in society. The regulation of the market has done nothing to assist misuse or abuse.

To replicate such problems with illicit substances would be madness.

You can't just lump all drugs together like this. Alcohol is completely unique. No other drug, if legalised, would have the same sociological impact. The settings, usage, dose, frequency of consumption, user demographics etc... all vary substantially across each substance.

When looked at in respect of it's unique sociological features, MDMA has several clear advantages over alcohol:
It's not addictive.
The comedown effects, and the emotional drain of the experience, discourage extended binges over multiple days.
Unlike alcohol/pot, it's not a drug people will sit at home, alone and binge on for extended periods. It's a hyper-social drug.
There's a very specific time and space setting where users indulge.
Users are not prone to violence
Users judgment isn't substantially affected, such that they would expose themselves to danger.

All of this suggests it would have a much lighter, if any impact, when considered in comparison to alcohol, where the contrary could be said to all the above points, the contrary being potentially socially and personally destructive

You've got to analyze each substance with an informed and open perspective and assess the potential sociological impacts on it's merits. You can't just broadly state "drugs = problems", because it's not that simple and it's just not true.

The regulation of the market has done nothing to assist misuse or abuse.

Because prohibition of alcohol in the U.S circa 1920 was a much more successfull policy.

Things regulation has done-
- Generated a shitload of taxation used towards good deeds.
- The users aren't relentlessly harassed by the police for no reason.
- Booze pushers aren't wasting time and money in our jails
- Prohibition failed in every sense to do anything about abuse. Criminalizing it and making it taboo increased usage rates.

"When Prohibition was introduced, I hoped that it would be widely supported by public opinion and the day would soon come when the evil effects of alcohol would be recognized. I have slowly and reluctantly come to believe that this has not been the result. Instead, drinking has generally increased; the speakeasyhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Speakeasy has replaced the saloon; a vast army of lawbreakers has appeared; many of our best citizens have openly ignored Prohibition; respect for the law has been greatly lessened; and crime has increased to a level never seen before"
~J.D. Rockefeller

Rockefeller's words about the downsides of prohibition sure sounds strongly familiar today.

Prohibition never works. Never.

 

[incentivation]

Re: Drugs kill daughter, parents blame unscrupulous people for taking advantage of he

To throw one back at you, would you be in favor of the banning of motorcycles on public roads, to protect these users from themselves? There is no need for anyone to ride motorcycles in modern Australia, they are responsible for a hugely disproportionate number of fatalities.

Other than the crime of drug possession itself, I wasn't aware of any causative link between crime and MDMA use.

I thought you said it was really difficult to find anyone who would even know where to get pills?

Illicit in general. Not just confined to MDMA.

You can't just lump all drugs together like this. Alcohol is completely unique. No other drug, if legalised, would have the same sociological impact. The settings, usage, dose, frequency of consumption, user demographics etc... all vary substantially across each substance.

When looked at in respect of it's unique sociological features, MDMA has several clear advantages over alcohol:
It's not addictive.
The comedown effects, and the emotional drain of the experience, discourage extended binges over multiple days.
Unlike alcohol/pot, it's not a drug people will sit at home, alone and binge on for extended periods. It's a hyper-social drug.
There's a very specific time and space setting where users indulge.
Users are not prone to violence
Users judgment isn't substantially affected, such that they would expose themselves to danger.

All of this suggests it would have a much lighter, if any impact, when considered in comparison to alcohol, where the contrary could be said to all the above points, the contrary being potentially socially and personally destructive

That may indeed be true, however you're making assumptions based on the current patterns of use. How can you be sure that it users would continue to be discouraged from extended binges? The demographics of use would surely change with regulation and a reduction in price.

All the factors such as time and space setting apply in the current environment. There is no guarantee that it would remain that way with greater accessibility and availability.

You've got to analyze each substance with an informed and open perspective and assess the potential sociological impacts on it's merits. You can't just broadly state "drugs = problems", because it's not that simple and it's just not true.

Maybe you can't lump them all together. You obviously have a good understanding of MDMA and the research conducted. Moreso than myself.

I must say, it has been challenging arguing against the legalisation of certain drugs. I see what you are saying, and maybe it would work. I just worry about the risks of extended use.

 

[jtyler]

Re: Drugs kill daughter, parents blame unscrupulous people for taking advantage of he

Other than the crime of drug possession itself, I wasn't aware of any causative link between crime and MDMA use.

lol, I think you might find there's even a decreased likelihood of crime for this particular drug

In the end it all comes down to whether you think existing measures work, and whether you think the government ought to have the right to legislate what you can ingest. I don't and I don't, it's that simple.

 

[Graney]

Re: Drugs kill daughter, parents blame unscrupulous people for taking advantage of he

I must say, it has been challenging arguing against the legalisation of certain drugs. I see what you are saying, and maybe it would work. I just worry about the risks of extended use.

I appreciate your work. Even though I might get fired up, I love and thrive off contrary views. Post more.

 

[Graney]

Re: Drugs kill daughter, parents blame unscrupulous people for taking advantage of he

A friend of the family told 6PR radio that the girl took three ecstasy tablets before entering the festival's gates after she spotted police searching people for drugs.

Teenager dead after drug overdose at Big Day Out - Local News - News - General - The Canberra Times

Threat of police search forces girl to drop many pills at once, leading to her death.

Well played, prohibition.

 

[Riet]

Re: Drugs kill daughter, parents blame unscrupulous people for taking advantage of he

Bitch needs to man up.

 

[scarybunny]

Re: Drugs kill daughter, parents blame unscrupulous people for taking advantage of he

Ham wallet.

 

[Graney]

Re: Drugs kill daughter, parents blame unscrupulous people for taking advantage of he

There must have been something fucked in those pills, you're not supposed to die from 3.

If only there were a guaranteed safe and reliable source she could have bought clean pills from.

 

[incentivation]

Re: Drugs kill daughter, parents blame unscrupulous people for taking advantage of he

Well played prohibition?

I thought you could down eccies like water? Harmless aren't they?

 

[AlleyCat]

Re: Drugs kill daughter, parents blame unscrupulous people for taking advantage of he

Would she have died taking the same pill, if she hadn't drunken all that water?

H2NO!

hhahahah oh mercy.

 

[Graney]

Re: Drugs kill daughter, parents blame unscrupulous people for taking advantage of he

You can. They are.

The police investigation will show they were not pure MDMA, but some other, far more toxic substitute

From the article I posted:

Steve Allsop from the National Drug Research Institute said each pill was a gamble.


"One of the risks is that people don't know what it is they're taking. What they were taking one week will vary the next week and that is the problem with a drug such as ecstasy is that people are lulled into a false sense of security about what they're taking," he said.



The gamble this unfornate girl died for could be elliminated.

 

[Riet]

Re: Drugs kill daughter, parents blame unscrupulous people for taking advantage of he

Yeah, that article is mad vague. She took 3 "ecstacy" tablets and had a suspected "ecstacy overdose".

Kinda like saying I died from 3 panadol when I took 3 "painkillers" that were heroin or something.

 

[AlleyCat]

Re: Drugs kill daughter, parents blame unscrupulous people for taking advantage of he

yeah... i dont take pills anymore really.

i need to save my tolerance up for a big party so i can take halves at a time instead of popping 3 at once to get any sort of high.

oh, and MJ fo eva.

 

[Riet]

Re: Drugs kill daughter, parents blame unscrupulous people for taking advantage of he

My friends wanna take heaps of rack camping with us, hopefully I dont come back like tony montana.

 

[AlleyCat]

Re: Drugs kill daughter, parents blame unscrupulous people for taking advantage of he

i'll be your elvira.

 

[blue_chameleon]

Re: Drugs kill daughter, parents blame unscrupulous people for taking advantage of he

You can. They are.

The police investigation will show they were not pure MDMA, but some other, far more toxic substitute

From the article I posted:

Steve Allsop from the National Drug Research Institute said each pill was a gamble.


"One of the risks is that people don't know what it is they're taking. What they were taking one week will vary the next week and that is the problem with a drug such as ecstasy is that people are lulled into a false sense of security about what they're taking," he said.



The gamble this unfornate girl died for could be elliminated.

This is what worries me, Graney.

Irrespective of the whole 'prohibition' debate, this illustrates that pills aren't 100% safe. MDMA is a different matter. We can all agree here that people don't die from ingestion of MDMA lol.

Ultimately, we can't say pills are safe because only the manufacturer knows what is in them when they are made. Given this is a public forum and impressionable minds are lurking, I think the separation of the points need to be clarified.