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Drug Legalisation (2 Viewers)

davin

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frog12986 said:
Revoking the legality of a drug is much more difficult than protecting society by maintaining the illegal status of drugs that at the end of the day, will have more detrimental and long lasting effects upon society. Is that notion really that difficult to comprehend?
difficulty doesn't enter into it, though. we're talking about what should, in theory, happen.
should anything difficult not be bothered with because its too hard? the qyestion is SHOULD alcohol be legal or illegal, not if you think it would be hard to make it illegal
 

frog12986

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crazyhomo said:
what detrimental and long lasting effects will alcohol prohibition have on society?
Not the prohibtion of alcohol, but the legalisation of the illegal drugs..
 

crazyhomo

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frog12986 said:
Not the prohibtion of alcohol, but the legalisation of the illegal drugs..
so prohibition of alcohol has many positive effects and no negatives?
 

frog12986

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davin said:
difficulty doesn't enter into it, though. we're talking about what should, in theory, happen.
should anything difficult not be bothered with because its too hard? the qyestion is SHOULD alcohol be legal or illegal, not if you think it would be hard to make it illegal
No, but practicality should and does override idealistic theories any day of the week...

Ice, Cocaine, Speed, Ecsatsy, GBH..just to name are few, exceed alcohol in power and potential harm by enormous amounts..
 

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frog12986 said:
No, but practicality should and does override idealistic theories any day of the week...

Ice, Cocaine, Speed, Ecsatsy, GBH..just to name are few, exceed alcohol in power and potential harm by enormous amounts..
and so does alcohol ...

wat r u trying to say? that alcohol is safe? inmoderate yes, but so is anything other drug in moderate amounts.


i say legalise marijuana, so it makes it easier for me to smoke in public. otherwise i have to b e shady
 

davin

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so, you are saying taht you do believe alcohol should be illegal, it would just be too difficult to impliment?
 

crazyhomo

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frog12986 said:
No, but practicality should and does override idealistic theories any day of the week...

Ice, Cocaine, Speed, Ecsatsy, GBH..just to name are few, exceed alcohol in power and potential harm by enormous amounts..
what are the practical problems with alcohol prohibition?
 

tWiStEdD

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I'm going to take an uncharacteristically cautious approach.

Okay. Yes, alcohol is far reaching. We've all had a few too many drinks and used it as an escape, it destroys families, friendships and lives sometimes; but it doesn't follow that we should even bring prohibition into the picture. Alcohol, by it's nature, is the 'big' drug; it is easily induced, has minimal side effects in small doses and can facilitate extremely positive social interaction and encourage friends to have a laugh together. On the flipside, overindulgence is... well... not fun. The next day is ruined... who wants a hangover? Not to mention the future liver failures and other health complications that come from abusing it. Alcohol is, by it's very nature, always going to be the drug that everyone uses and everyone wants to use.

Now, illicit drugs have a far different effect and are used for far different reasons. Pot is used for some reason, never really understood why... it just never worked for me. It too is far reaching simply because of the ease of inducing and (of course) the effects (apparently mostly good and not that bad in both the short and long terms).

In the same regard, ectasy is a quick and easy fix... but it doesnt NEED to be dangerous. It can be dangerous because drug dealers do not care about who takes their drugs due to the wholly inelastic demand curve. People will still want to take their drug of choice regardless of what happened to their friend, they may change suppliers but in the end most drugs are likely to be manufactured by the same guys (e.g. Cocaine [anyone see foreign correspondant last night? whoa!]). Person X thinks it won't happen to them because they're careful or they think they'd know better if they were faced with a choice between ectasy that has been cut with other things and the real deal.

Using Ectasy as my case study, we would see a number of things happen if the government legalised it:
- quality would increase. It would. Chemists would be allowed to pursue this industry as a legal profession. You'd get the greatest minds in science (as soon as it was widely accepted) working to produce the highest quality fix at the lowest cost. Noone would buy the black & gold or home brand varieties, but the Coca-Cola of the E industry would be hugely successful.
- Costs would decrease. What's that? DECREASE? What're you talking about?! It's true. Sure, demand is high and relatively inelastic but supply would likely rise to unprecedented levels. Drugs cost so much because they're illicit, by their very nature they must cost more due to the risks involved. There is not likely to be any risk of junkies robbing stores.
- Safety and long term effects of drugs would gradually fall as chemists (and businesses) undertake legitimate research into how they could prevent damage to their consumers. Businesses want their consumers alive to spend more money and they want them to do so without fear of hurting themselves.
- More people may give certain drugs 'a try' but government would logically have to insist that the substances be non-addictive so there should be no long term problems associated with more experimentation.
- Crime would fall. This is a given as it has been discussed to my satisfaction previously, I won't repeat what others have already rightly said. (e.g. Prohibition in America)

Ask yourself the question 'If drugs were legalised, would you try more drugs or if you already do, would you take more?'

I don't think we should legalise them though. It's a major risk. While I have set out a whole bunch of what I think are likely scenarios, they're merely my opinion. Such legislation would have to be the fruit of years (or even decades) of market research by politicians, scientists and statisticians. It's clear that if we legalised them and then said "hang on! this isn't working the way we expected it to (as in my model), lets pull the plug and criminalise everything again!" then there would be a sharp rise in criminal activity as in the prohibition era (once all the business' inventories have been sold off). Such a decision is a leap of faith and cannot be taken lightly as it is a path that you cannot easily go back on and it could just as easily have very negative effects on Australia as distinct from places like the Netherlands if simply because we are a different society with different beliefs and very different people.
 
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Mountain.Dew

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frog12986 said:
Revoking the legality of a drug is much more difficult than protecting society by maintaining the illegal status of drugs that at the end of the day, will have more detrimental and long lasting effects upon society. Is that notion really that difficult to comprehend?
ummm just one thing: if you make a drug illegal, doesnt that perpetuate and further increase the activity of the black market? no to mention the lack of quality and the shady dealings involved with it as well.
 

frog12986

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Why? Because its an ingrained part of not only many cultures, but also the Australian way of life, and is in line with global standards. The point is not alcohol prohibition as the argument has become, but rather why these other illicit drugs should not be legalised. Primarily, that comes down to the relative impact that greater and more frequent usage would have upon society as a result of more extensive availability..and alcohol conforms to that notion. If we place more powerful drugs in the same situation we are faced with an effect upon society that is more detrimental and definitely more negative..
 

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frog12986 said:
Why? Because its an ingrained part of not only many cultures, but also the Australian way of life, and is in line with global standards. The point is not alcohol prohibition as the argument has become, but rather why these other illicit drugs should not be legalised. Primarily, that comes down to the relative impact that greater and more frequent usage would have upon society as a result of more extensive availability..and alcohol conforms to that notion. If we place more powerful drugs in the same situation we are faced with an effect upon society that is more detrimental and definitely more negative..
i guess ur leaving out another drug - ciggys? surprisingly they are legal and i would say they are worse than marijuana. at least marijuana gets u high.
 

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frog12986 said:
Why? Because its an ingrained part of not only many cultures, but also the Australian way of life, and is in line with global standards.
so...you're saying that alcohol is good because everyone else is doing it?
 

frog12986

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tWiStEdD said:
- Safety and long term effects of drugs would gradually fall as chemists (and businesses) undertake legitimate research into how they could prevent damage to their consumers. Businesses want their consumers alive to spend more money and they want them to do so without fear of hurting themselves.
.
And cigarette companies are the perfect example of business that place consumers ahead of profitabilty..Presuming that manufacturers would place consumer interests ahead of their own is extremely bold..
 

davin

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Ask yourself the question 'If drugs were legalised, would you try more drugs or if you already do, would you take more?'
just to bring up that angle.... i think that thats dependant on a person's views, not just if its legal. i've got friends that have tried assorted drugs and found no reason to take it again.
personally, i've not tried any drugs, cuz i don't want to. which is also why i don't drink or smoke. its not a legal thing, its my own view on it.
 

HotShot

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davin said:
just to bring up that angle.... i think that thats dependant on a person's views, not just if its legal. i've got friends that have tried assorted drugs and found no reason to take it again.
personally, i've not tried any drugs, cuz i don't want to. which is also why i don't drink or smoke. its not a legal thing, its my own view on it.
u can legalise these drugs, and then impose heavy restrictions on them. SO they would legal but in some instances they will not be easy to acquire.
 

tWiStEdD

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frog:
exactly. My model is idealistic (uncharacteristically so) but in an industry which would be highly regulated we'd have to apply lessons we've learnt from the cigarette industry.

davin:
and that's the question i'm actually asking. clever kid. Legality doesn't change the opinions of society, so why should we stop it if people like us are never going to take anything anyway? What makes our morals better than those who would like to take drugs?
 

davin

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thought so, but you did also question legalising it, so i didn't want to imply what i was saying was same as you... good to know that was the point you were making.
 

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I actually think we should be actively encouraging pot use over alcohol..

Now, my response to the first rant.

How will it be decided on who the business will be? Initially they would have to be business run by organised criminals as the would be the only ones that would have ready access to large quantities of the "stuff".
With the millions of dollars our government is spending on fighting drugs,I'm sure they could take that and produce a hooch farm pretty damn quickly (i.e. in time for when the law comes into effect).

Legalising it won't do shit to the quality. A lot of organisations today take short cuts in order to cut costs. This includes things like diluting drinks, minimising quantities of inputs as well as using cheaper and inferior substitutes. Although drugs are illegal, common sense would state that the makers would try to create good quality "stuff" in order to satisfy their clients.
Well your common sense is only partially right. Of course they satisfy their clients, but the drugs are still full of this weird bs - If you allow the government to regulate these drugs then they ensure the quality is high.

No drug maker would want to produce shit, as this might kill the user and bring attention to the maker. I think that the same priciples apply now in the underground industry, as they would if it were to be legalised.
Pot hasn't ever killed anyone. As for your other drugs, it's usually the other bullshit that people put into the drugs that ends up killing people, which we would stop.

Drug debates, anti drug commercials and documentaries are all too common. The same is true for drug research and its effects. I can't see any child not being able to talk to their parents about the problems associated with drugs.
Pot is a remarkably non-toxic drug - we've been brainwashed.

Why pay for something that could be avoided entirely? The cost of treatment is one thing, but social costs are something completely different. To cover all social costs the drugs would have to be priced so high, that they would be unattainable for most people. Therefore, you would still have the illegal undergorund trade as you do now.
We're already paying millions in 'social costs' putting away these victimless criminals and tracking down these drug plantations etc... More people are dying because the drugs are unsafe.... The 'social costs' after legalising drugs would be lower than before.

As for the prices, currently there's already a huge markup on drugs (with thousands of middle men, the cost it takes to keep them hidden from the government etc) so it's fairly doubtful that people will continue to go to these underground sources for drugs especially once the government is mass-producing the stuff that's actually incredibly cheap to make.

It would be doubtful that drug users would quietly sit at home and veg. A number of issues would cause problems. Having a high excise would mean that many addicted people would not be able to afford the drugs. They would have to steal and rob, as is the case now.
No mate, the stealing and robbing would cease... of course when you're talking about this you're really talking about heavy speed or heroine users, which I actually do believe is perhaps too far.

Other people, whi might be able to afford the drugs may drive, operate machinery or just go bonkers on the street. Who knows what would happen? But whatever would, it certainly wouldn't be good. And someone has to pay for these problems and protect society.
These problems you've made up are a fantasy...


My main problem with legalising drugs would be that once we allow everyone to do these drugs, will they look for something heavier in the pursuit of a bigger buzz? There's a drug out there called 'death' which is essentially almost a death wish...
 

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i strongly believe that drugs should be decriminalised, if not legalised. i strongly support harm reduction.
for example, most risks associated with MDMA is impurity, and death from the so-called ecstasy is mostly not caused by MDMA. legalising it means testing kit will be legal (i think it's illegal to sell testing kit in NSW right now?)
besides, drugs just like any other mind-altering substances, i see no need to differentiate between them. if people want to screw up their life with drugs, i don't think it's the government's role to stop them (not that it can of course)
however, education is the key, the potential effects of drugs must be made available to all who is thinking of taking it, a bit like tobacco and alcohol.
 

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