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Don't feel silly, it is confusing [SMH] (1 Viewer)

jpr333

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Bottom line is they don't publish any publicly available rules or course requirements, therefore IMO the system is significantly LESS fair then the one currently implemented in NSW. Let's not forget the privatisation of the College system (particularly the elite colleges/uni's there) and the significant disparity in Uni quality and fees (the 3 tiers of colleges or whatever) has forced their system down that path.

If you think they have a FAIRER system... um agree to disagree to put it lightly.

To take it a step further past the tertiary systems looking at the countries on the whole, who do you think has the fairer system... Aus ranked 3rd on standards of living, America is what 12th? Anyway digressing...
 

Xayma

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jpr333 said:
Bottom line is they don't publish any publicly available rules or course requirements, therefore IMO the system is significantly LESS fair then the one currently implemented in NSW. Let's not forget the privatisation of the College system (particularly the elite colleges/uni's there) and the significant disparity in Uni quality and fees (the 3 tiers of colleges or whatever) has forced their system down that path.

If you think they have a FAIRER system... um agree to disagree to put it lightly.

To take it a step further past the tertiary systems looking at the countries on the whole, who do you think has the fairer system... Aus ranked 3rd on standards of living, America is what 12th? Anyway digressing...
On the whole probably Australia, in terms of university entry, possibly America. There are more ways to get into university, you can take out federal loans for living costs, your parents can take out loans to help you go to university to any amount.

Also there isn't a privitisation of the college system, the elite private universities have always been private, they were never nationalised which is a large difference, and they have no need to be nationalised, if anything it is more fair as anyone in the country pays the same amount. Rather then huge fee differences as the university systems are run by the individual states.
 

jb_nc

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jpr333 said:
I was under the impression there were no state wide tests (iirc) thuse comparisons between rankings in schools becomes mightily hard.
It's the same in the sense that they get a ranking which determines what university courses they will be offered. Completely different to either Britain's or America's.
 

jpr333

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Yeah but how can the rankings be fair if there are no state wide tests to rate or seed if you will (thx aus open :p ) schools.

Xayma said:
Also there isn't a privitisation of the college system, the elite private universities have always been private, they were never nationalised which is a large difference, and they have no need to be nationalised, if anything it is more fair as anyone in the country pays the same amount. Rather then huge fee differences as the university systems are run by the individual states.
Yeah I meant private relative to ours not that they privatised per se, sorry about that. If you think $20g's US a semester is fair (hello Harvard), regardless of dubious entry mechanisms, you must be pretty well off :p (not to mention "donations") Yeah I'll concede Harvard as a result is the world's most superior college in terms of research and resources etc but within the context of the fairness of national tertiary systems... not even.
 
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Xayma

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jpr333 said:
Yeah but how can the rankings be fair if there are no state wide tests to rate or seed if you will (thx aus open :p ) schools.


Yeah I meant private relative to ours not that they privatised per se, sorry about that. If you think $20g's US a semester is fair (hello Harvard), regardless of dubious entry mechanisms, you must be pretty well off :p (not to mention "donations") Yeah I'll concede Harvard as a result is the world's most superior college in terms of research and resources etc but within the context of the fairness of national tertiary systems... not even.
I'm not well off, but that is largely irrelevant. Only the rich students (who also happen to be more likely to get in due to various factors not concerned with the school, bar possibly those graduates being better off and having alumni preference schemes) will pay that amount. What typically happens at rich universities (the tier 1 universities) is:

Financial information from the parents is used to decide what they can pay (and they can take out loans).
Financial aid is offered in the form of loans from the government (similar to HECS except obviously more).
Large amounts of grants are used to reduce the cost to often less then half for those who aren't well off.

From wikipedia: "Under new financial aid guidelines, parents in families with incomes of less than $60,000 will no longer be expected to contribute any money to the cost of attending Harvard for their children, including room and board. Families with incomes in the $60,000 to $80,000 range contribute an amount of only a few thousand dollars a year."

I can't be bothered going through the site, but at least Princeton follows the same style. The rest is covered is through loans (which have a maximum amount) and grants.
 

xxPanDa

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i was wondering.. out all the ppl from university
why would a ARCHITECT care? lol


o wait.. these arnt the architects that build buildings right?
 

juzmister

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I did AP Econ, but I was not given any UAI advantage. My friends in Australia who did Economics got in on a lower UAI. In the states I can use my AP's as course credit...I'm fairly sure the AP Course is almost identical to Uni Macro and Micro econ...You think there would be any way to get out of these classes?
 

kami

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juzmister said:
I did AP Econ, but I was not given any UAI advantage. My friends in Australia who did Economics got in on a lower UAI. In the states I can use my AP's as course credit...I'm fairly sure the AP Course is almost identical to Uni Macro and Micro econ...You think there would be any way to get out of these classes?
If you can demonstrate your AP course satisfied the same criteria as a first year university subject in a similar area then you may get advanced standing. I would doubt you could get credit for it though, that usually only happens with previous tertiary qualifications.
 

Anonymou5

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There is no concrete ranking system, this issue hasn't be addressed but dodged quite frequently.

Submission letters are completely pointless. If someone lacks the skills to complete the course, then who cares how much bs they can put together in a letter? They'll just end up wasting a place in uni. The UAI is a far better indicator of whether or not someone at least has some form of ability in the areas relevant to the uni course which the student wishes to pursue.

(For the retards: Yes, people could go to disadvantaged schools, have family problems etc which affect their HSC performance. But the same can be said about the US system. The difference is that the HSC is a more relevant test for the purposes of uni entry. I'd say that 3u/4u maths is more relevant to engineering than the equivalent of a year 9 maths test.)
 
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kami

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Anonymou5 said:
There is no concrete ranking system, this issue hasn't be addressed but dodged quite frequently.

Submission letters are completely pointless. If someone lacks the skills to complete the course, then who cares how much bs they can put together in a letter? They'll just end up wasting a place in uni. The UAI is a far better indicator of whether or not someone at least has some form of ability in the areas relevant to the uni course which the student wishes to pursue.
How does the UAI ensure that there is ability in relevant areas? As it is now, you could quite easily gain entry into a science course with all humanities in your HSC or into an arts course with all sciences. Neither would be reflected in one's UAI.

Submission letters also often entail more than just stating enthusiasm to get into a course - they often accompany portfolios or questionaires about a students academic and extra-curricular achievements (often requiring references for these). So they'd likely to ensure entrants who are more suitable for a university course than someone who gains entry via a handful of digits generated with no consideration of ability or interest in the given subject.
 

Anonymou5

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I know where this is headed so I'm not going to waste a huge amount of time responding to questions which don't actually strike the core of the issue.

1. My comments are often straight forward and yet people somehow manage to twist them around - incorrectly. I did not say that the UAI is an absolute measure of an applicants suitability for any given course, only that it is a comparatively much better indicator than a series of tests which someone in year 9 can ace.

2. As I alluded to before, you could have the most brilliant communicator with the most impressive list of extracurriculars but none of that is relevant unless they can complete the course. For example someone who has done no maths at the HSC level will struggle in most engineering courses. So for the purposes of entry into such a course, a submission letter is a superfluous entry requirement. References, extracurriculars are for job applications, not university courses except for a minority of courses.
 

jpr333

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Yes ^. I have found this thread is less of an argument/debate/discussion and more of a yeh but *pointless tangent semi-related to the issue* diversion exercise of sorts. Noone for the against UAI side adresses the key issue which is comparative quantitative analysis of results, rather than the less relevant qualititative what ifs/but this is how they do it in retard land statements :p.
 

kami

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Anonymou5 said:
I know where this is headed so I'm not going to waste a huge amount of time responding to questions which don't actually strike the core of the issue.

1. My comments are often straight forward and yet people somehow manage to twist them around - incorrectly. I did not say that the UAI is an absolute measure of an applicants suitability for any given course, only that it is a comparatively much better indicator than a series of tests which someone in year 9 can ace.
How can a rank that includes a multitude of irrelevant studies be better than those series of tests? Also, keep in mind that it is not whether a year 9 student can ace them, it is about who shows the most aptitude through these results. Obviously the most keen and apt students would demonstrate this, and it would have been verified by such things as experience in appropriate HSC subjects (most questionaires ask this), relevant extra-curricular and vocational experience and so on.

2. As I alluded to before, you could have the most brilliant communicator with the most impressive list of extracurriculars but none of that is relevant unless they can complete the course. For example someone who has done no maths at the HSC level will struggle in most engineering courses. So for the purposes of entry into such a course, a submission letter is a superfluous entry requirement. References, extracurriculars are for job applications, not university courses except for a minority of courses.
Interestingly enough the UAI doesn't require a UAI and creates such situations - people without sufficient maths doing science/engineering course or people with poor language skills doing humanities courses. This issue is solved, not worsened, by the alternative means of entry assessment such as the submissions or UNSW's recent policies. Also, as you may have noticed in both this post and my previous one, submission letters are almost never unaccompanied - people do not get in on communication skills alone.
jpr333 said:
Noone for the against UAI side adresses the key issue which is comparative quantitative analysis of results, rather than the less relevant qualititative what ifs/but this is how they do it in retard land statements .
The issue is that the comparative analysis of results is often based on irrelevant results, this issue is solved by the introduction of other means of entry that many Australian (or 'retard land' as you call it) universities use. The thread also questions which method is preferable and most legitimate, so no one has been dodging the issue. :)
 

Anonymou5

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Suggestion: Use points which are central to the issue rather than ramble about a bunch of irrelevant isolated cases with the sole purpose of adding bulk to your argument, you're not in year 10 anymore.

1. The "series of tests" which you speak of are designed so that they may be taken by any student. By their very nature, they cannot test aptitude anywhere near as well as the HSC can. This is because at the very least, the HSC tests a combination of knowledge and ability to apply such skills, the alternative system doesn't.

Whilst some of the HSC subjects taken by any particular student may be irrelevant to the course they wish to study, there will almost always be some which are relevant (eg. 3u/4u maths for engineering). On the other hand, the "series of tests" in a US-like system would not be relevant at all.

This is because they are too general and don't test any key skills to an extent which is even comparable to the HSC - topping the state on a test on solving linear equations and applying basic trignonometry doesn't indicate mathematical aptitude. You're ignoring the fact that when tests are as easy as the ones in the US system, it's next to impossible to properly discriminate any large cohort because even one minor error sends your rank plumetting down.

2. Please face reality. Apart from law, in the vast majority of cases you will not see obscure situations such as someone who hasn't done any maths in HSC taking engineering or someone who can't even string a few sentences together taking a humanities course.

The HSC doesn't create the problem of people taking courses which they are not suitable for - people's stupidity does. If anything, a US-like entry system would promote such inappropriate course choices. Like I said before, the tests in such a system are designed to be accessible to any student, and therefore cases such as a humanities oriented student nailing a maths test even if they have little talent in that area will arise frequently. This leaves the door wide open for people making unsuitable course choices, much more so than the HSC system would.

Finally, why do you continue to ramble about things which aren't relevant? For instance, why did you even bother saying that submission letters are almost never unaccompanied? There was no need for that as I had already explained previously that in most cases a submission letter is a superfluous requirement. Besides, a submission letter for the purpose of illustrating a candidate's communication skills wouldn't be needed if the year 12 english tests were comprehensive - which the US ones clearly aren't hence the need for submission letters.
 
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kami

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Anonymou5 said:
Suggestion: Use points which are central to the issue rather than ramble about a bunch of irrelevant isolated cases with the sole purpose of adding bulk to your argument, you're not in year 10 anymore.
May I suggest that you look to eliminate the fallacies in your own argument before criticising anothers. Especially since you do law.

1. The "series of tests" which you speak of are designed so that they may be taken by any student. By their very nature, they cannot test aptitude anywhere near as well as the HSC can. This is because at the very least, the HSC tests a combination of knowledge and ability to apply such skills, the alternative system doesn't.

Whilst some of the HSC subjects taken by any particular student may be irrelevant to the course they wish to study, there will almost always be some which are relevant (eg. 3u/4u maths for engineering). On the other hand, the "series of tests" in a US-like system would not be relevant at all.

This is because they are too general and don't test any key skills to an extent which is even comparable to the HSC - topping the state on a test on solving linear equations and applying basic trignonometry doesn't indicate mathematical aptitude. You're ignoring the fact that when tests are as easy as the ones in the US system, it's next to impossible to properly discriminate any large cohort because even one minor error sends your rank plumetting down.
Perhaps you would do well to note that I have not been referring to the US system, rather I have been referring to our own system which comprises measures that have been applied by Australian universities since before you began highschool. The measures applied by these universities and courses are usually quite specific and relevant e.g UNSW commerce with its new alternate entry based on mathematics and english, UOW creative arts with its submissions of work accompanied by a lengthy personal statement - not to mention the UTS software engineering courses which take into account the candidate's abilities in the relevant HSC subjects. So as you can see, these measures are far from general and prevent such problems as the UAI introduces.

You also seemed to have missed the point - I have never argued against the HSC - I have argued against the UAI.

2. Please face reality. Apart from law, in the vast majority of cases you will not see obscure situations such as someone who hasn't done any maths in HSC taking engineering or someone who can't even string a few sentences together taking a humanities course.
Perhaps then you have not noticed the international students who attempt communications and arts despite having poor language skills? Or those who apply for medicine because its prestigious rather than them being interested or skilled in science nor the required communication skills? Or those who attempt psychology or education or nursing without the basic math ability that one could expect from a prelim general maths student?

The HSC doesn't create the problem of people taking courses which they are not suitable for - people's stupidity does. If anything, a US-like entry system would promote such inappropriate course choices. Like I said before, the tests in such a system are designed to be accessible to any student, and therefore cases such as a humanities oriented student nailing a maths test even if they have little talent in that area will arise frequently. This leaves the door wide open for people making unsuitable course choices, much more so than the HSC system would.
Again, the issue is with the UAI not the HSC and I am not arguing using the US system as an example. So your argument isn't really relevant.

Finally, why do you continue to ramble about things which aren't relevant? For instance, why did you even bother saying that submission letters are almost never unaccompanied? There was no need for that as I had already explained previously that in most cases a submission letter is a superfluous requirement. Besides, a submission letter for the purpose of illustrating a candidate's communication skills wouldn't be needed if the year 12 english tests were comprehensive - which the US ones clearly aren't hence the need for submission letters.
A large part of most university courses is to create presentations of your work in front of a group in some way, shape or form. Therefore the ability to communicate, at least regarding the specific subject, is somewhat important. However since this is far from being the only important criteria the submissions are not unaccompanied. Additionally, the ability to communicate in the various areas are not expansively covered by HSC english which for example hardly assesses one's ability to articulate ideas of industrial design. So I'm not sure why you're having difficulty in understanding the relevance of this.
 

Anonymou5

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May I suggest that you look to eliminate the fallacies in your own argument before criticising anothers. Especially since you do law.
Actually I don't do law. In any case even if there are fallacies in my responses, it does not suddenly change the fact you've been rambling on about irrelevant isolated cases. By your reasoning, someone who has made mistakes in the HSC shouldn't even consider advising their friends as to what they could do to improve their chances of getting a sufficiently high UAI for their purposes. God, it's so sad when people need to resort to the good old 'z0mG j00 a hypocrite!1!1!1, so you can't correct me on anything even when I'm clearly wrong' line.

Perhaps you would do well to note that I have not been referring to the US system, rather I have been referring to our own system which comprises measures that have been applied by Australian universities since before you began highschool. The measures applied by these universities and courses are usually quite specific and relevant e.g UNSW commerce with its new alternate entry based on mathematics and english, UOW creative arts with its submissions of work accompanied by a lengthy personal statement - not to mention the UTS software engineering courses which take into account the candidate's abilities in the relevant HSC subjects. So as you can see, these measures are far from general and prevent such problems as the UAI introduces.

You also seemed to have missed the point - I have never argued against the HSC - I have argued against the UAI.
It's good that you've provided examples but to make things clear once and for all, what exactly do you want to see changed with the current system and what better alternative (or additions) do you have in mind? The examples you've given are cases in which universities have used more or less sensible methods of selection.

However, a submission letter certainly doesn't fall into the same category as your examples. Group/individual presentations are usually done verbally and as such a cover letter can't convey a student's presentation skills. I'll explain.

Therefore the ability to communicate, at least regarding the specific subject, is somewhat important.
What is there to communicate? In many cases the student won't know anything related to their course. It would be unreasonable to expect a high school student to have any useful knowledge of say, fluid mechanics. That's why university courses exist, to teach students the relevant theory. You cannot properly gauge a high school student's aptitude for something like engineering with a submission letter, or any of the other 'additional selection criteria' which you have put forward. Just because someone is particularly good with say heavy machinery (ie. they're a hands on nuts and bolts kind of person), it does not make them more suitable than another high school student who doesn't possess such skills. Why? I for one know of many people who had that 'mechanical aptitude' but could not pursue engineering courses because they lacked the relevant maths skills. On the other hand, many who did not show that technical aptitude early on, were able to get through an entire engineering course. Usually, the aptitude shown at a young age only takes you so far, you need other skills as well. So clearly, for many non-humanties courses, it's the demonstrated HSC subject prowess than matters, not so called aptitude.

The whole point of the above is that submission letters are only relevant to a limited number of courses. It is indeed superfluous for the purposes of gaining entrance to many courses. So it would be unreasonable to make a submission letter compulsory for all courses - suggesting otherwise would indicate a complete lack of understanding of what university courses entail.

Perhaps then you have not noticed the international students who attempt communications and arts despite having poor language skills? Or those who apply for medicine because its prestigious rather than them being interested or skilled in science nor the required communication skills? Or those who attempt psychology or education or nursing without the basic math ability that one could expect from a prelim general maths student?
You do realise that those who do actually make it into medicine must have taken the UMAT right? They also (apart from at Melbourne) must attend an interview. If they weren't suitable for medicine, they wouldn't have made it through all of that. So your example is just nonsense since people who pursue medicine for the sole reason of prestige won't get in. As for the others, the UAI itself isn't the problem, it's more the fault of the universities. In Victoria there is a ENTER (Victorian version of the UAI) but the unis over here have preqrequisites (such as a specified minimum level of achievement in specified subjects). That in itself would eliminate most problems of the type you have given in your examples. This, among other things, would render a submission letter redundant for many non-humanities courses.

Just in case you overlooked this, what exactly do you want to be changed about or added to the current system? Please don't just repeat the submission letter argument unless you can explain how a letter would be relevant in the fluid mechanics example I gave above. I ask this of you because you appear to be saying that a submission letter should be required for entrance to all courses, even though I already explained why it is irrelevant in many courses.
 
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kami

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Anonymou5 said:
Actually I don't do law.
My apologies then, I'd confused you with the poster previously known as Vahl3.

In any case even if there are fallacies in my responses, it does not suddenly change the fact you've been rambling on about irrelevant isolated cases.
Its a criticism of you commencing your argument with an insult based on the fact that you do not agree with me. Thats the fallacy I was most directly refering to, among others.
It's good that you've provided examples but to make things clear once and for all, what exactly do you want to see changed with the current system and what better alternative (or additions) do you have in mind? The examples you've given are cases in which universities have used more or less sensible methods of selection.
My point is that these sensible methods are far better than the UAI and thus should be applied more widely. The original article criticises the implementation of these methods as being unfair when compared to the UAI.

These sensible methods are part an parcel of the submission letters which are usually more complex than you seem to have indicated. Hence my disagreement with your outright dismissal of these in favour of the UAI.
The whole point of the above is that submission letters are only relevant to a limited number of courses. It is indeed superfluous for the purposes of gaining entrance to many courses. So it would be unreasonable to make a submission letter compulsory for all courses - suggesting otherwise would indicate a complete lack of understanding of what university courses entail.
At UTS the submission letters for engineering would have you detail what previous academic experience you have (e.g maths or IPT or SDD or IT or eng. stu or physics - all of which are useful), reflect on what you got out of those experiences, list vocational experience (useful since several strands of engineering have alot of work placement) and discuss what they want out of the course. After this they'd proceed to an interview to expand upon this (which also demonstrates verbal skills).

For other courses where the knowledge about such matters is more generally available they have more detailed submission letters e.g creative arts and communications. The point being that its not all that superfluous and it is a fairly adaptable means of assessment and thus is not entirely unreasonable either.


You do realise that those who do actually make it into medicine must have taken the UMAT right? They also (apart from at Melbourne) must attend an interview. If they weren't suitable for medicine, they wouldn't have made it through all of that. So your example is just nonsense since people who pursue medicine for the sole reason of prestige won't get in.
That was my point. The UAI isn't a decent way of determining a candidates viability, thus alternate forms of assessment like special exams or submissions or interviews etc. are preferable. As has been shown in the example with medicine.

As for the others, the UAI itself isn't the problem, it's more the fault of the universities. In Victoria there is a ENTER (Victorian version of the UAI) but the unis over here have preqrequisites (such as a specified minimum level of achievement in specified subjects). That in itself would eliminate most problems of the type you have given in your examples. This, among other things, would render a submission letter redundant for many non-humanities courses.
I agree with the bulk of this point, however not everything is covered by HSC subjects (at least not here) in such a way as to make this a completely fool proof method. I wouldn't mind however, if subject prerequisites were introduced in NSW along with the various additional criteria handled by the universities, so long as they ditched the UAI.
 
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Anonymou5

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For creative arts and communcation courses I have no objection to a submission letter being required. However, I cannot see any significant merit in the idea of having to submit what is essentially a creative essay to get into an engineering course. Performance in HSC maths, physics and engineering related subjects already reflect what people gained from those courses and as such a cover letter is not required.

But I hear some people saying 'z0mg people might have got sick during the HSC thus preventing them to perform to their potential' but that isn't relevant either - if anything the fact that people had problems during the HSC (to the extent that it would affect their results) highlights the fact that they didn't gain much from their courses/subjects.

As for vocational experience, most jobs teenagers can obtain consist of performing trivial tasks which any joe blow you take from the street can do. You don't gain anything practical from it so I don't see how pre-uni work experience is relevant at all, even for engineering at UTS. If that's not the case then please be specific in explaining how a student with 'vocational experience' would be at an advantage during their UTS engineering work placements.

Oh and interviews, it's not exactly hard to speak about yourself for a few minutes. In fact, why not introduce another test where students are assessed on their depth perception and general visualisation skills? I mean it's certainly an area which an engineering student should be well versed in. But such tests don't exist. I'll tell you why, it's because like speaking (communicating) it's a completely trivial task so why would you test it at all? Same goes for having an interview for the purposes of assessing communication skills.

Most importantly, you need to take into account that universities are only responsible for teaching students the relevant technical skills. As such, in many cases (such as engineering) students should be selected for their uni courses solely on the basis of their technical/theoretical skills. You're missing the point that interpersonal skills, life experiences etc. are all things which are assessed at job interviews because in the work place you need to be able to communicate with others. On the other hand, University is for gaining the relevant theoretical background and that doesn't require anything of the student apart from the relevant technical skills. I don't think you've made the distinction between a learning environment and a work place. So if you've had some great experience in your life great, save it for the job interview but it has no place (for mention) in an environment where you are simply learning the theoretical material.

In response to your final paragraph; so what do you suggest? That students only take whatever subjects are relevant to their course? This would severely limit the flexibility they have with their course choices. I'd like to see what you've got in mind. After all, if the UAI is gone how will students go about choosing their subjects?
 
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uac.aplcnt

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Stumbled on this thread..thought it might be worth considering later for people
 

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