Does God Exist? (2 Viewers)

[MoonlightSonata]

For many it is a question of faith, not logic. Besides, logic is just as biased as any theological point of view (well, that's what I think, anyway, even though I prefer it over blind faith).

But what is faith? Believing something without evidence

So for many, it is a matter of believing God exists without any reason that God exists.

Logic is biased? How in the hell?

 

[Not-That-Bright]

The bible contains some scientifically accurate knowledge... and a load of bs, like the flood etc.

That's like saying harry potters to be believed because in it people breath air, which is what people do.

 

[Generator]

It's biased towards tangible evidence .

 

[veanz]

I have asked logical proof, and none has been given. The way we prove things on this planet is through reason, logic and evidence. It is hardly a matter of inclination, it is the only way we can form sound arguments. If I told you the flying goat-God gorgamel kidnapped me last week, you would ask for proof, because you probably don't believe the flying goat-God gorgamel exists.

A different "justification of religious statements" ? What sort of justification would that be based on besides reason, logic and evidence?

youre failing to see that agnosticism is a point of view - validity is subjective.

it's inclination when an agnostic wants to disprove God's existence by knowing and hence arguing it cannot be scientifically proven.

But my point anyway, is that it you cannot argue science with religion or vice versa -- i believe, they are completely two different levels of thinking. You cant use how to explain why.

Omitting this gorgamel business, who defines what is logic and evidence in this kind of debate? how do you make it universally adaptable? why in this context, does something have to be logical (thats subjective anyway) for it to make sense and be justified?

 

[MoonlightSonata]

the world looks designed therefore there must be a designer similar to if there was a watch, then obviously there must be a watchmaker.

Refuting the Design Argument, Part 1

Claim:
Complexity indicates intelligent design.

Response:
1. This is a quintessential argument from incredulity. Complexity usually means something is hard to understand. But the fact that one cannot understand how something came to be does not indicate that one may conclude it was designed. On the contrary, lack of understanding indicates that we must not conclude design, or anything else.


2. Irreducible complexity and complex specified information are special cases of the "complexity indicates design" claim; they are also arguments from incredulity.

In the sort of design that we know about, simplicity is a design goal. Complexity arises to some extent through carelessness or necessity, but engineers work to make things as simple as possible. This is very different from what we see in life.


3. Complexity arises from natural causes, for example in weather patterns and cave formations.


4. Complexity is poorly defined.

 

[MoonlightSonata]

Refuting the Design Argument, Part 2

Claim:
Systems are irreducibly complex if removing any one part destroys the system's function. Irreducible complexity (IC) in organisms indicates they were designed.

Response:
1. Irreducible complexity is claimed to indicate (but doesn't) that certain systems could not have evolved gradually. However, jumping from there to the conclusion that those systems were designed is an argument from incredulity. There is nothing about IC systems which is positive evidence for design.


2. IC suggests a lack of design. For critical applications, such as keeping an organism alive, you don't want systems that will fail if any one part fails. You want systems that are robust.

 

[MoonlightSonata]

Refuting the Design Argument, Part 3

Claim
Design requires a designer; contrivance requires a contriver.


Response:
1. Design does not require an anthropomorphized designer. Designs appear in clouds, for example, with no more of a designer than uneven heating, evaporation, etc.


2. Evolution is a designer. Via variation and selection, it serves to favor reproduction and shape things according to environmental conditions.


3. If the Designer does not need a designer to create it, why should other things?

 

[Not-That-Bright]

Give up with me moonlight... it's so obvious that they say that, then you refute it, then they say it's all their faith and they don't care....

 

[Sophie777]

Its good to see people are taking an interest in religion-related issues, even if it is simply trying to disprove another's beliefs. I apologise if i am repeating what has already been said (reading soooo many posts when i am "studying" *cough* would take too long!) But in my opinion God exists because the idea that he (or she) doesnt exist is an extremely sobering one. To think that God doesnt exist gives me a sense of despair and hopelessness as it seems to imply that my existence here on earth is pointless... That ur life exists for just a short space of time and that is it. That we are just beings of reproduction, each trying to make a mark in the world. Belief in ANY higher deity is gives a sense of purpose.

For those asking for solid evidence that God exists... well even the things we thought we knew have conspiracies theories (ie The Moon Landing) thus almost anything can be disproved. Consider this perhaps, why has the concept of "God" existed almost since the very beginning. Why are people willing to die, willing to offer their lives for "God". Were there absolutely no basis or evidence for "God" surely the notion would have died out long, long ago.... perhaps that is your evidence.

If you are looking for proof of "miracles", read into the lives of the Saints, yes i realise that can easily be "disproved" but what is the scientific evidence for the incorruptible bodies of Saint Bernadette or St John Vianney.

Opps... i've gone into 'lecture-mode' sorry!!! There's my pov!! Thankies!! Sorry if i repeated what every1 else has already said!

For the exact reason you stated. It is too hard to accept a world with no God, hence even if it doesn't make sense, people accept the truth of religion.

 

[Not-That-Bright]

I find it interesting... all the theists first state they hate that we're 'trying to disprove peoples beliefs', then they say 'In my opinion.. .you're wrong'.

It turns out all we have to do is say 'In my opinion' and we can say whatever the hell we want.

 

[Sophie777]

Not-That-Bright.. are you a liberal supporter?

 

[Not-That-Bright]

Yes i am,
I realise that they're fairly closely aligned with christianity, however i don't see this being reflected in their policies (other than some social policies).

 

[Monkey Butler]

The argument that we should believe in God just to be sure is absolute bullshit - we should live our life contrary (in many cases) to our own morals just in case there's a God? What if there isn't, we'll die without actually living a single day.

And as to the design thing (I know it's already been said but I wanna have my piece ) - if a planet is condusive to life, life will form there. That it formed here in the way it did is merely evidence that we were particularly suited to this planet. On Mars you would get animals suited to that climate, etc. It's not like we already existed and we just happened to find a planet that suited us, it's the other way around.

 

[rapier]

Someone already made this point. The reason Earth HAS life is because it is perfect for human habitation. Life only grew because of these simple facts. This is no proof for a God... yes if someting changed 1 degree there wouldn't have been life. But this evidence can also be proved to say that by chance the earth had the perfect conditions and therefore life formed. It makes more sense this way actuallyt. Can someone who knows about this point please explain it in a better way?

I believe a pretty simple way to look at this point is to say: "Well, if the planet wasn't actually 100% perfect for habitation, then who would be here to take note of that fact?". The earth is suited amazingly well to human life, but its not really a miracle that we are here - because if the Earth wasn't just right noone would know any better.
Someone used petri dishes as an example earlier. I argued the validity of the point as it was somewhat over simplified, but it was a reasonable example.

If I may change my tone a little now, your remarks as to religion being at odds with "intellectualism" don't have a sound basis. Faith and logic may co-exist happily together, and portraying the presence or lack of faith in one as some sort of intellectual deficit is not valid.
Personally I have little knowledge of or connection with organised religion, but the majority of those who do can find significant justification for their beliefs.
Conversely, I realise that you can find just as many to dispute these beliefs.

The result: nil.

I would, however, encourage the discussion to keep moving - albeit without the agressive cynicism of each others beliefs which has been moving into the thread in the latter (and most probably the earlier) stages. In aid of this, I would like to remind everyone (religious, atheist and those in-between) that the thread is about the existence of god/gods. Such existence is NOT dependant on Christianity, Islam, Buddhism, Hinduism, Judaism, Feminism, etc.

EDIT: On a lighter note, the comment about putting pieces of a watch into a bag and shaking it and not being able to end up with a watch or what not reminded me of a reference in the hitchhikers guide to the galaxy to something like: An infinite number of monkeys with an infinite amount of time would eventually write Hamlet. My recollection is extremely hazy, but it is amusing nonetheless.

 

[Comrade nathan]

Such existence is NOT dependant on Christianity, Islam, Buddhism, Hinduism, Judaism, Feminism, etc.

Why did you group feminims with the other religions.

 

[Comrade nathan]

NO.

The Evidence for Evolution is overwhelming.

Evolution by natural selection, the central concept of the life's work of Charles Darwin, is a theory. It's a theory about the origin of adaptation, complexity, and diversity among Earth's living creatures. If you are skeptical by nature, unfamiliar with the terminology of science, and unaware of the overwhelming evidence, you might even be tempted to say that it's "just" a theory. In the same sense, relativity as decribed by Albert Einstein is "just" a theory. The notion that Earth orbits around the sun rather than vice versa, offered by Copernicus in 1543, is a theory. Continental drift is a theory. The existence, structure, and dynamics of atoms? Atomic Theory. Even electricity is a theoretical construct, involving electrons, which are tiny units of charged mass that no one has ever seen. Each of these theories is an explanation that has been confirmed to such a degree, by observation and experiment, that knowledgable experts accept it as fact. That's what scientists mean when they talk about a theory: not a dreamy and unreliable speculation, but explanatory statements that fits the evidence. They embrace such an explanation confidently, but profisionally taking it as their best available view of reality, at least until some severly conflicting data or some better explanation might come along.


Not mine, recent National geographic. For all thoose who like to think that anything labeled a theory is just plain wrong.

 

[Not-That-Bright]

yea... NO scientist believes micro evolution doesn't occur (because it's very easy to prove) , however some crazy theist scientists say macro evolution doesn't occur... (like from amphibians to reptiles) however both micro, macro work in kinda the same way it's just a matter of a long time to prove the other lol

 

[Jesus!]

FFS. It I exist then obviously christianity is real!

 

[tracy_deguzman]

hey everybody...
umm.. ive been reading some of this debate about God existing.. personally i believe he does but that is because i am a christian.. i read this story from a forward and found it relates to your debate..

A man went to a barbershop to have his hair cut
and his beard trimmed. As the barber began to
work, they began to have a good conversation.
They
talked about so many things and various subjects.
When they eventually touched on the subject of
God, the barber said: "I don't believe that God
exists."

"Why do you say that?" asked the customer.

"Well, you just have to go out in the street to
realize that God doesn't exist. Tell me, if God
exists, would there be so many sick people?
Would
there be abandoned children? If God existed,
there
would be neither suffering nor pain. I can't
imagine a loving God who would allow all of these
things."

The customer thought for a moment, but didn't
respond because he didn't want to start an
argument.

The barber finished his job and the customer left
the shop. Just after he left the barbershop, he
saw a man in the street with long, stringy, dirty
hair and an untrimmed beard. He looked dirty and
unkempt.

The customer turned back and entered the barber
shop again and he said to the barber: "You know
what? Barbers do not exist."

"How can you say that?" asked the surprised
barber. "I am here, and
I am a barber. And I just worked on you!"

"No!" the customer exclaimed. "Barbers don't exist
because if they did, there would be no people with
dirty long hair and untrimmed beards, like that
man outside."

"Ah, but barbers DO exist! " answered the barber.
"What happens, is, people do not come to me."

"Exactly!"- affirmed the customer. "That's the
point! God, too, DOES exist! What happens, is,
people don't go to Him and do not look for Him.
That's why there's so much pain and suffering in
the world."

newaiz.. take care and God bless....

 

[Not-That-Bright]

why do christians always post the ambigious weird stories?