Does God Exist? (3 Viewers)

[Not-That-Bright]

he's saying that it's stupid to use the bible to proove the existance of god...

 

[MoonlightSonata]

so ur saying the bible has nothing to do with the existence of god

Yes, I think we've made that point about fifty times in this thread. You can't use the Bible to prove the existence of God.

Originally Posted by MoonlightSonata:
Stop using the Bible!

[Anyone frustrated with Bible-quoters can quote this passage to stop people from irrelevantly talking about the Bible to show the existence of God] --

You cannot use the Bible to prove the existence of God. To do so is a fallacy called begging the question, or similarly, circular reasoning. It is this:

1. The Bible says God exists
2. How do we trust the Bible?
3. Because it is from the word of God, etc
4. How do we trust that it is the word of God?
5. The Bible says so
--
6. How do we trust the Bible?
7. Because it is from the word of God, etc
8. How do we trust that it is the word of God?
9. The Bible says so
10. How do we trust the Bible?
11. Because it is from the word of God, etc
12. How do we trust that it is the word of God?
13. The Bible says so
14. How do we trust the Bible?
15. Because it is from the word of God, etc
16. How do we trust that it is the word of God?
17. The Bible says so

ETC -- Circular reasoning. So believers, please stop using the Bible. Thankyou

 

[dark_angel]

Yes, I think we've made that point about fifty times in this thread. You can't use the Bible to prove the existence of God.

Originally Posted by MoonlightSonata:
Stop using the Bible!

[Anyone frustrated with Bible-quoters can quote this passage to stop people from irrelevantly talking about the Bible to show the existence of God] --

You cannot use the Bible to prove the existence of God. To do so is a fallacy called begging the question, or similarly, circular reasoning. It is this:

1. The Bible says God exists
2. How do we trust the Bible?
3. Because it is from the word of God, etc
4. How do we trust that it is the word of God?
5. The Bible says so
--
6. How do we trust the Bible?
7. Because it is from the word of God, etc
8. How do we trust that it is the word of God?
9. The Bible says so
10. How do we trust the Bible?
11. Because it is from the word of God, etc
12. How do we trust that it is the word of God?
13. The Bible says so
14. How do we trust the Bible?
15. Because it is from the word of God, etc
16. How do we trust that it is the word of God?
17. The Bible says so

ETC -- Circular reasoning. So believers, please stop using the Bible. Thankyou

i'm trying to contradict christian people

 

[Not-That-Bright]

What makes you sure your religion is right and every other religion is wrong?
What claim to truth does yours have?

 

[dark_angel]

What makes you sure your religion is right and every other religion is wrong?
What claim to truth does yours have?

There is no 'right' or 'wrong' religion, religion is based upon the individual.

saying that, i do think that there are major flaws in most religions ive seen

i will not discuss any further aspects about my religion, because to tell u the truth i do not know that much about it yet.

so if u want to know more about the religion (which i think you should, because any question u had about it i had an answer to, and u seem like ur interested)

whats the harm in following a perfectly moral, logical, and happy lifestyle? because that is what my religion is to me.

go to www.sikhs.org

browse, mayb you will find that sikhism is more logical and appealing to the religious beliefs that you hold now (even if there is none)

i know an american guy who knew nothing about it, he became a full sikh, and learnt the entire language, i thought it was pretty amazing.

i should not say anything more about it, it would be foolish of me to do so, until i am more aquantied with the religion i cannot answer questions of this regard.

i dont want to say something i know nothing about

but dont u like contradicting people? i think its rather fun.

I think most people in the "does god exist" have not replied becaue they got smashed or mayb they busy...lol i dunno

I dont diss other religions, but comon, u can clearly see that some contradict themsleves

 

[Not-That-Bright]

There is a right answer and a wrong answer in objective realitity...... You either believe your belief is right and everyone else is wrong, or you believe your belief is wrong and someone else is right..

 

[dark_angel]

There is a right answer and a wrong answer in objective realitity...... You either believe your belief is right and everyone else is wrong, or you believe your belief is wrong and someone else is right..

i think what your refering to is in relation to the theory of 'bivalance"

a bivalent statement has only two answers, either it is right, or it is wrong.

Man, where is your logic coming from, this is not a bivalent arguement, it has levels, (just like sins in christianity )

firstly u dont know what i think, and i cant know what u think. It is subjective.

no i dont beleive that atheism is wrong at all, actually i think i would be an atheist if i did not know about sikhism.

I dont believe that other religions are wrong, although all that i have seen so far dont seem logical to me (but that is just my opinion). If u show me another religion that is as logical as sikhism i will ofcoure not think that it is wrong.

i find it fun when people quote the bible and manage to contradict themselves, dont u?

 

[Not-That-Bright]

Yes but there is only one truth.... either a god exists or it doesn't.

Sikh's have just as many arguments over their holy tests as anyone else...

Like any religion, Sikhism has both its conservative and progressive aspects. As a result, many of the religious conflicts which occur within the Sikh community are between those who are more conservative in their understanding of Sikh traditions and those who are more progressive in how they think those traditions should be followed and applied today. What makes such conflicts so difficult is that both sides believe that what they are doing is necessary to preserve the Sikh faith.

A good example of this the conflict over translating the Adi Granth, the collection of Sikh holy writings. The Adi Granth is regarded so highly that extreme measures are taken to ensure that it stays holy. It is not, for example, permitted to be translated because any translation would necessarily compromise some of its meaning.

This can cause problems because the Adi Granth is written in Punjabi, a language which is not easy to understand and which many young Sikhs in the West have little contact with. Some in the Sikh community would like to see the Adi Granth translated into English in order to ensure that young Sikhs do not drift away from the faith of their ancestors. Others, however, believe that such translation would corrupt the true meaning of the text and hence should not be done.

Thus, we can see that both sides have a legitimate claim to be trying to preserve Sikhism while also regarding their "opponents" as promoting ideas and actions which will, in the long run, destroy the essence of Sikhism. The question then become: what is the "essence" of Sikhism? Should we look to the community of believers or rather to the preservation of an ancient collection of holy writings? The answer to that will dictate whether one is more sympathetic to the progressives or to the conservatives.

This religion was only started in 1469.... so of course it's not going to have as many historical inacuracies as other religions =/

 

[dark_angel]

Yes but there is only one truth.... either a god exists or it doesn't.

yes......finally we agree on something

thats the point of the whole thread. for me god exists

 

[dark_angel]

Yes but there is only one truth.... either a god exists or it doesn't.

Sikh's have just as many arguments over their holy tests as anyone else...


This religion was only started in 1469.... so of course it's not going to have as many historical inacuracies as other religions =/

yup

but notice, that the arguements do not pertain to any other religion .

 

[Comrade nathan]

There is no 'right' or 'wrong' religion, religion is based upon the individual.

Objectivity is no based on the individual. Religions and other outside envrionments create the individuals thought, not thought creating the outside this leads to the next quote.

whats the harm in following a perfectly moral, logical, and happy lifestyle? because that is what my religion is to me.

It distracts progressive people from improvement, and keeps reactionaries in place. No one wants to improve working conditions when they are filled full of god trash.

 

[dark_angel]

Objectivity is no based on the individual. Religions and other outside envrionments create the individuals thought, not thought creating the outside this leads to the next quote.

yes you believe that the 'self' is created by society and the environment. i agree, but once we are informed the 'self' makes its own decisions, and that is the point, it is not a matter of how the environment affects choices, but rather that the ability to make these choices that is pertinent.

this is y atheism still exists, because if religion affected them, y are atheists still present?

It distracts progressive people from improvement, and keeps reactionaries in place. No one wants to improve working conditions when they are filled full of god trash.

Actually, no, the sikh religion actually has 'langar' which is basically the sharing of food after prayer, and anyone is welcome.

If u look at the financial status of the sikh holy temples, you will notice, that there is a significant donation towards scientific research against diseases such as cancer etc.

With the help of my religion, i myself am improved, and am hoping to contribute to society in some way or another

 

[Comrade nathan]

I found that on a nother forum, its original is from. ExitMundi

The tittle is a bit misleading, its not challenging the existence of 'self'. If the theist believe this is true, then how cna there be existence of god. To have a relationship with god mensyou need a soul, that would explain the feeling some theist claim. Also to ascend to heaven you would need a non material component to the self, that would be a soul.

This article also explains how religion may have came about, the old plug trick of i cant understand this feeling it must be spiritual.

And You? How Real Is Your Mind?

So, to wrap things up: we live in a place that’s not really a ‘place’, we’re made of stuff that’s not really ‘stuff’ and what we see is only a small part of what’s really there. Matter, time, dimensions, the Universe – it’s all lucid, unreal. And to make things even more bizarre, for some reason, our Universe is exactly preset to make our existence possible. Pretty confusing, don't you think?

Gladly, you can cling to this one security: that you are here. No matter how weird the stuff around you is, you are definitely for real. No need to explain: you just know you are.

But do you really?

Let’s do an experiment. Speak out your name over and over and over and over again. After a while, you’ll notice something weird. Your name will begin to sound strange. It’s no longer something that is you – your name is just a word, a random sequence of syllables and sounds that other people utter when they want to catch your attention. If your parents had given you another name, you would listen to another sequence of sounds.

The same happens when you look in the mirror. Stare at your own face long enough, and you’ll suddenly realize it’s just another face. The face in the mirror is, of course, yours. But after a while, it won’t feel like that anymore. The face you see could be anybody's.

Most neuroscientists agree the same applies for your consciousness. The thing you call your ‘self’ is most likely an illusion, created by your brain. Your brain gives you vision, sound, speech, feelings, and thoughts. When you add all these things up, you’ll have some overall feeling of awareness you call your consciousness. But still, your brain is the thing running it. Your feeling of ‘self’ is best compared to a software program running. It looks very real – but it isn’t.

Of course, most people believe there is something like a ‘soul’ or a ‘spirit’ living inside of you. But when it comes down to facts, there just isn’t any evidence for that. Every thought you have, every move you make, every emotion you feel - it’s just brain, brain, brain.

There are actually experiments that prove it. When you disturb your brain in a certain way, your feeling of ‘self’ can get detached from your brain. Suddenly, it will feel as if ‘you’ are not inside your body anymore. You experience what is known as an ‘out of body experience’, or a ‘near death experience’.


But you don’t have to be nearly dead to feel it. The sensation can easily be created in a laboratory, by placing a helmet with rotating magnetic fields on your head. The magnetic field acts like a ‘jam signal’ on your brain. Suddenly, you'll feel like you're floating outside your body. But you aren’t. It’s just your brain going confused.

And you don't really need a helmet to do the trick. Visiting a place where the movement of the Earth's crust generates magnetic fields can give you the experience. Being in a situation where your brain doesn't get enough oxygen sometimes does it. Certain brain operations bring out the experience. Meditation and intensive prayer can generate it.

In fact, exactly this is why some people see ghosts, or Maria, or feel like they are visited by aliens. It is an incredible weird experience to be ‘outside of your brain’. Your brain will try to make sense of it. Immediately, the rational part of your brain will come up with an ‘explanation’ for the experience. You will sense a ‘presence’ near you. If you’re religious, you might see Maria, or Jesus. If you believe in UFOs, your brain might tell you you’re visited by aliens. If you believe in ghosts, you’ll feel the presence of a ghost of a dead person. But in reality, it’s your own feeling of self you’re experiencing.

 

[lengstar]

http://www.elroy.net/ehr/

Best website ever.

that was really interesting

 

[dark_angel]

I found that on a nother forum, its original is from. ExitMundi

The tittle is a bit misleading, its not challenging the existence of 'self'. If the theist believe this is true, then how cna there be existence of god. To have a relationship with god mensyou need a soul, that would explain the feeling some theist claim. Also to ascend to heaven you would need a non material component to the self, that would be a soul.

This article also explains how religion may have came about, the old plug trick of i cant understand this feeling it must be spiritual.

And You? How Real Is Your Mind?

So, to wrap things up: we live in a place that’s not really a ‘place’, we’re made of stuff that’s not really ‘stuff’ and what we see is only a small part of what’s really there. Matter, time, dimensions, the Universe – it’s all lucid, unreal. And to make things even more bizarre, for some reason, our Universe is exactly preset to make our existence possible. Pretty confusing, don't you think?

Gladly, you can cling to this one security: that you are here. No matter how weird the stuff around you is, you are definitely for real. No need to explain: you just know you are.

But do you really?

Let’s do an experiment. Speak out your name over and over and over and over again. After a while, you’ll notice something weird. Your name will begin to sound strange. It’s no longer something that is you – your name is just a word, a random sequence of syllables and sounds that other people utter when they want to catch your attention. If your parents had given you another name, you would listen to another sequence of sounds.

The same happens when you look in the mirror. Stare at your own face long enough, and you’ll suddenly realize it’s just another face. The face in the mirror is, of course, yours. But after a while, it won’t feel like that anymore. The face you see could be anybody's.

Most neuroscientists agree the same applies for your consciousness. The thing you call your ‘self’ is most likely an illusion, created by your brain. Your brain gives you vision, sound, speech, feelings, and thoughts. When you add all these things up, you’ll have some overall feeling of awareness you call your consciousness. But still, your brain is the thing running it. Your feeling of ‘self’ is best compared to a software program running. It looks very real – but it isn’t.

Of course, most people believe there is something like a ‘soul’ or a ‘spirit’ living inside of you. But when it comes down to facts, there just isn’t any evidence for that. Every thought you have, every move you make, every emotion you feel - it’s just brain, brain, brain.

There are actually experiments that prove it. When you disturb your brain in a certain way, your feeling of ‘self’ can get detached from your brain. Suddenly, it will feel as if ‘you’ are not inside your body anymore. You experience what is known as an ‘out of body experience’, or a ‘near death experience’.


But you don’t have to be nearly dead to feel it. The sensation can easily be created in a laboratory, by placing a helmet with rotating magnetic fields on your head. The magnetic field acts like a ‘jam signal’ on your brain. Suddenly, you'll feel like you're floating outside your body. But you aren’t. It’s just your brain going confused.

And you don't really need a helmet to do the trick. Visiting a place where the movement of the Earth's crust generates magnetic fields can give you the experience. Being in a situation where your brain doesn't get enough oxygen sometimes does it. Certain brain operations bring out the experience. Meditation and intensive prayer can generate it.

In fact, exactly this is why some people see ghosts, or Maria, or feel like they are visited by aliens. It is an incredible weird experience to be ‘outside of your brain’. Your brain will try to make sense of it. Immediately, the rational part of your brain will come up with an ‘explanation’ for the experience. You will sense a ‘presence’ near you. If you’re religious, you might see Maria, or Jesus. If you believe in UFOs, your brain might tell you you’re visited by aliens. If you believe in ghosts, you’ll feel the presence of a ghost of a dead person. But in reality, it’s your own feeling of self you’re experiencing.

as i said before i dont trust my senses that much as epistemology is a major issue in this universe.

but let me ask u what happens when u sleep?

some say that your 'self' dissapears, i would like to hear ur opinion before i go too far.

This is entirely based on your opinion ofcourse, you can be a materialist, and think that the concious is just electricity coursing through a medium.

if this were so, there would be no real point in a soul, because if we could find a machine that replicates every atom of a person in the exact same position, we could create EXACTLY the same person. But i dont think quantum theory would allow that, thankfully.

In the so-called mind-body problem in phlosphy, there are two broad kinds of position to take. some philosophers are dualists, believing that humas are composed ot two quite distinct kinds of thing, a non-phyisical mind or soul and a phsical body. others are materialsits or physicalists, believing that humans are entirely physical, composed of matter alone. What u choose is ur view.

if u lose a limb, would u lose part of your 'self' ?

what exactly am i saying when i say 'myself'?

these are all things that i have pondered over, and yes i too have thought plenty of times how my name has no significance whatsoever. Supprisingly, i never knew other people had the same feeling, as when i talked to my friends about it, they usually punched me or something like that...lol.

interesting.

well i would like to pose the quesiton to you, "what do u define as your 'self'?

this is just out of curiosity.

 

[MoonlightSonata]

thats the point of the whole thread. for me god exists

God either exists or he doesn't exist. Whether you believe it or not. It's not subjective. Religions are right or wrong. True or false.

I'm getting quite annoyed at all this subjective stuff

 

[Generator]

It's just as valid as your objective stance.

 

[MoonlightSonata]

It's just as valid as your objective stance.

No, it isn't.

You can't say, "oh God exists because I believe he exists."

The claim is either true or false.

 

[dark_angel]

No, it isn't.

You can't say, "oh God exists because I believe he exists."

The claim is either true or false.

god exits. In my opinion.

i agree that it is a bivalent statement, but the nature of the answer is what is subjective.

 

[MoonlightSonata]

god exits. In my opinion.

i agree that it is a bivalent statement, but the nature of the answer is what is subjective.

Well that's fine but your opinion isn't very helpful without reasons