Does God Exist? (2 Viewers)

[Sophie777]

God Doesn't Give Me Purpose. Don't Tell Me That Just Because I Don't Know If He Exists That I Have No Purpose. I Do Things For The World, I Run Fundraisers For Cancers. I Have A Purpose, I Will Have Many Things To Fulfill In Life. I Atleast Can Find Purpose For Myself, Without The Guidance Or Promise Of An Afterlife. I'd Rather Fulfill Life On Earth!

 

[Sophie777]

you aren't being very nice people to assume no purpose or hope in my life. It's an awful thing to say to someone. YOu should be ashamed.

 

[Sophie777]

I do believe in god, or else i wouldnt have converted. it takes complete belief for a person to convert, but can i ask something, u all seem to want to 'see" god or find evidence of his existence but have any of u eva questioned love. can u see love, show me love. i want to touch it. its impossible. u cant show me love or prove to me it exists. but everyone knows it exists. why? coz we feel it. now no one not evn an athiet can tell me they dont believe in love, yet why dont they argue it dosent exist just like they argue god dosent exist coz they cant see him. some of u keep saying only atheists are coming up with explanations as to why god dosent exist. can u see why its so hard to prove that he exists. its easy for an athiets to give me nintey nine reason as to why god dosent exist, but its not about evidence. its about a feeling in ur heart. god gave us brains to differentiate between ppl, ur not dumb. u have brains, god gave u this brain so that u can use it and think with it and realise u were not made from nothing to serve no purpose. not everything is going to be delivered to u on a silver plater, u have to use ur brain and think with it. now if ur not open to the idea of god then u will never accept it in ur heart so theres no point trying to find evidence until ur truly seeking it

Yeh right. I am not dumb and I have brains--- all the more reason to use it to question the logic of a God. Wouldn't it be my heart that would desire certainty?

 

[Beck the Bimbo]

Faith and belief in God or Religion is a totally personal thing...I have been reading this thread and the people you are religous who have posted are better people than some of you. You hack on them pull their post apart as it were bread and you were looking for weavels.
Beleif in God is Hope....Its not about being popular or working your but off in this word to get to the next. It is about love and hope. The world is in Dire Straights and we all need some good news...Jesus is that good news. Others may beleive that their god is the good news and that is totally their opinion which they have every right to.
If the world ends tomorrow and I was wrong there is no God...then i have lived a good life with no guilt and no burden. I am a free person.

If you havent tryed it dont knock it and certaintly dont say it doesnt exist. I am a christian and i am not afraid to say that because God and Jesus are a releif and i have a relationship that only i know and understand.
Someone talked about just acepting that God was always there never wondering and investergating where "he" actually originated from. This is something in my opinion that is beyond the reasoning of the Human mind we are just unable to understand so there for we accept....As Sophie777 said we cant see love we just accept that it is there...same with God . There is more evidence historically to say that Jesus Christ walked the earth and died and rose again than there is to say that Julius Ceaser was a real person and not a myth.


"God has murdered many, i'm sure he's managed to fit sex into it somewhere." As for this comment This is your opinion...There are murders in the bible but good is not human so how can you link him with human characteristics and actions. God in the bible appears in many different forms (as does satan) as a dove, a burning Bush, a piller of smoke. He takes the form of a human in Jesus and Jesus was never recorder as a murderer.

Proverbs 11:2
"When pride comes, then comes disgrace, but with humility comes wisdom."
I think we could all learn a lesson from this myself included.

 

[thejosiekiller]

i said if u dont have faith in things that u percieve as artificial for some reason what do u have hope in- i didnt say that u have no hope sophie i was curious

and medicine will not always find a cure for everything- i believe some things are beyond man's capabilities

believing in god isnt about the afterlife, its about this life and the possibility for those who believe it of what happens next

 

[Not-That-Bright]

back.. i've already shown you how your whole julius ceasar thing is a dumb example in the other thread, i'm sorry.

Did you people not read my post about starting religions.... do my posts just seem too long for you guys to bother reading?

One of you was arguing with me about wether noah's flood happened, he pointed to one ambiguous peice of evidence and said 'AHAH!', i pointed out ALOT of evidence that points out the flood never happened, and there DEFINATELY was never an ark.

Jesus is that good news. Others may beleive that their god is the good news and that is totally their opinion which they have every right to.

But you disagree, you obviously think they're stupid and that they're praying to nothing, or you would be praying to their gods and not jesus.

It is about love and hope.

So a world full of atheists is one without love and hope? Why is it that understanding a world without a god... when you realise how important your time here really is would lead to less LOVE.

As for this comment This is your opinion...There are murders in the bible but good is not human so how can you link him with human characteristics and actions. God in the bible appears in many different forms (as does satan) as a dove, a burning Bush, a piller of smoke. He takes the form of a human in Jesus and Jesus was never recorder as a murderer.

So now you're justifying gods murders? (which didn't occur... but for arguments sake lets say they did).

Don't you think it's odd that 1000 years ago when the crusades happened they were following the same book? what happened? nothing has changed in the scripture.... the church has just lost power and can no longer be like that, in a sense... they follow the social shifts as to keep their numbers up.

I am a christian and i am not afraid to say that because God and Jesus are a releif and i have a relationship that only i know and understand.

Oh you do? so when you pray to god... does he REALLY talk back, or do only simple things happen that you TAKE as signs?
Do you ever get interupted by god because he wants to tell you something?

If the world ends tomorrow and I was wrong there is no God...then i have lived a good life with no guilt and no burden. I am a free person.

Think of the hours wasted going to church when you could of been enjoying life,
think of the MONEY for churches which could of gone TO FEED THE NEEDY!,
The millions of sallaries for various priests, bishops etc, what about their COMPLETELY WASTED LIVES?

If there is no god, and we are right... you are all wasting alot.
If there is a god, and you are right, then we will go to hell, but it seems so will everyone else who doesn't follow your exact god perfectly in the way that he wanted, or maybe he'll let us go to heaven too? (if you believe he's all merciful), maybe then i'll go to heaven too..

 

[jm1234567890]

i believe some things are beyond man's capabilities

What makes you believe that?

 

[Sophie777]

Faith and belief in God or Religion is a totally personal thing...I have been reading this thread and the people you are religous who have posted are better people than some of you. You hack on them pull their post apart as it were bread and you were looking for weavels.
Beleif in God is Hope....Its not about being popular or working your but off in this word to get to the next. It is about love and hope. The world is in Dire Straights and we all need some good news...Jesus is that good news. Others may beleive that their god is the good news and that is totally their opinion which they have every right to.
If the world ends tomorrow and I was wrong there is no God...then i have lived a good life with no guilt and no burden. I am a free person.

If you havent tryed it dont knock it and certaintly dont say it doesnt exist. I am a christian and i am not afraid to say that because God and Jesus are a releif and i have a relationship that only i know and understand.
Someone talked about just acepting that God was always there never wondering and investergating where "he" actually originated from. This is something in my opinion that is beyond the reasoning of the Human mind we are just unable to understand so there for we accept....As Sophie777 said we cant see love we just accept that it is there...same with God . There is more evidence historically to say that Jesus Christ walked the earth and died and rose again than there is to say that Julius Ceaser was a real person and not a myth.


"God has murdered many, i'm sure he's managed to fit sex into it somewhere." As for this comment This is your opinion...There are murders in the bible but good is not human so how can you link him with human characteristics and actions. God in the bible appears in many different forms (as does satan) as a dove, a burning Bush, a piller of smoke. He takes the form of a human in Jesus and Jesus was never recorder as a murderer.

Proverbs 11:2
"When pride comes, then comes disgrace, but with humility comes wisdom."
I think we could all learn a lesson from this myself included.

I said that love quote! What i was saying there is that we can actually feel and experience love and this feeling for God is up to you. I don't feel it, it isn't real to me. I haven't said anything spiteful about your religion at all, you can do whatever the hell you like. But to say if there is no god then you have lived your life with no guilt ... it implies somehow that this won't be the same for me. I probably live just as peacefull and respectfully as you, in fact I respect people more than most christians around me do. I think your view of your own grace is only your view, I don't think you summating my points is entirely fair. Keep your generalisations to yourself and please don't judge my abilties and hope in life as non-existent. IT's rediculous. Also, don't quote the bible, it is pretentious.

I will quote Satans words if you like, would you like that shoved in your face?

 

[Not-That-Bright]

i said if u dont have faith in things that u percieve as artificial for some reason what do u have hope in- i didnt say that u have no hope sophie i was curious

Atheists are realistic and have hope for this real world, we hope that man-kind WANTS peace... If you believe there's a bigger world than this, What do you have hope for IN THIS WORLD. It all seems kinda pointless for you, doesn't it? While an afterlife minimises the hopelessness of life "oh well, i'm in a shitty job, but in heaven i'll be rich!", it also minimises the purpose for this life.. What kind of a purpose is there in death?

and medicine will not always find a cure for everything

Oh yes, think of all the diseases that can't be cured that started hundreds of years ago... o wait woops, THERE ARE NONE.

i believe some things are beyond man's capabilities

Yet you believe nothing is impossible.... and you use that as a justification for god

believing in god isnt about the afterlife, its about this life and the possibility for those who believe it of what happens next

While alot of the morals in the bible have to do with this life, i believe they would exist as they seem to be enherently human morals (transending all cultures), however death to homosexuals and adulterers.... seems a little harsh no?

 

[Not-That-Bright]

It's a fair argument to say that people who believe there is no afterlife would care more about what happens in this life...

It seems obvious to me that God's power is too great for us to notice. Except for josie who is able to see God's power at work or then again.. maybe she just read it in the bible, better yet, maybe a priest gives her his unique reading of the bible which is too amiguous and has too many meanings, one of which applies to this situation, another which applies to another.....

 

[Not-That-Bright]

why is it that the atheists seem to be the only progressive people here...
i haven't heard an atheist come on and say 'STOP ARGUING!'...

Ok... first i'll give u the reasons why religion is bad...



now i'll explain to you your logic, and where it is flawed...

"It makes more sense to believe in God than to not believe. If you believe, and God exists, you will be rewarded in the afterlife. If you do not believe, and He exists, you will be punished for your disbelief. If He does not exist, you have lost nothing either way. "
It amounts to hedging your bets. The consequences upon your death are shown here:

I do not believe +God doesn't exist = Nothing
I believe +God doesn't exist = Nothing
I believe +God exists = Go To Heaven
I do not believe +God exists =Burn In Hell!

The worst case for the theist is no afterlife, the worst case for the atheist is an eternity in Hell. You can see why this appears to be a potentially convincing argument - it is sensible to choose the least-worst case.

The most obvious problems are:

* How do you know which God to believe in? There are plenty to choose from, and if you pick the wrong one, you could be in big trouble (e.g. what if you choose Jesus, but get to heaven only to come face-to-trunk with Ganesh?). This is known as the "Avoiding the wrong Hell problem". If a dozen people of different religions came to you with this question, how could you possibly choose between them? After all, many religions are quite specific that they are the One True Religion, and not any others. Jesus Christ said "I am the way, the truth and the light. None shall come to the Father except through me." [emphasis added] and no doubt most other religions make similar claims. If a Christian considers the Wager as strong support for his faith, surely he must accept that it is equally valid for all other religions when presented to himself?

* God is not stupid. Won't He know that you're just trying to get a free ride into Heaven? How can you sincerely believe in a God simply out of convenience?

* If there is no God, you have still lost something. You have wasted a good portion of your life performing the various devotional rituals, attending Churches, praying, reading scripture and discussing your deity with His other followers. Not to mention giving your hard-earned money to the church, wasting your intelligence on theological endeavours and boring the hell out of people who really don't want to hear your Good News.

* Can you get away with just sort of generally believing in a Supreme Being, without specifically believing in one particular Deity? Probably not - God will still know what you're up to. Also, many Gods are quite particular about how they should be worshipped. Many born-again Christians will tell you that the only way to Heaven is through accepting Jesus Christ as your personal saviour - nothing more and nothing less. General-Deity-Belief and being nice simply won't do. Many people believe that all the different religions are merely alternative routes to the same destination. Nice and tolerant (if a little warm'n'fuzzy) though this may be, there is no valid reason to accept this stance over the fire-and-brimstone fundamentalist position : if the fundamentalists are right, then the un-Saved liberal theists are in just as much trouble as the nonbelievers.

* It is quite insulting. It amounts to a thinly veiled threat, little better than saying "Believe in my God or He'll send you to Hell" (in fact, this is often the form it is presented in). Also, the theist making this threat assumes that the atheist believes there is a Hell or a God to send her there in the first place. If you don't believe in Hell anyway, it's not a scary thing to be threatened with - a bit like saying "If you don't start believing in unicorns, one will trample you to death while you're sleeping." Who would be worried by that?

* It is often self-refuting, depending on the person's description of God. If you believe that God will forgive anyone for anything, or judge people purely on how they lived their life and not what they believed, or that everyone gets to Heaven regardless (unless maybe they were genocidal cannibal serial killers), then the question is meaningless. You might as well say "Believe in God, or you'll... erm... go to Heaven anyway." In such a case, it doesn't make a scrap of difference whether the person believes or not.

PLEASE READ ABOVE IF YOU SAID SOMETHING ALONG THE LINES OF 'but if i believe in god and it's true, i will go to heaven, if not i will go to hell', AND COMMENT ON THAT BEFORE YOU SAY IT AGAIN....

Sorry but it's fairly stressful having people ignoring you then continuing to make the same statement acting as if what you said never even happened.

 

[Sophie777]

Can I please ask you josiekiller how you can criticise me questioning what you have faith in i.e. God. You say it is insulting and others say it is disrespectful. But I list the things I have faith in and you say that "medicine doesn't have cures for everything" and whatever else. Hypocritical.

I also believe medicine will find a cure for everything. I think that I have more faith in medicine that some outer force.

 

[joujou_84]

everyone keeps saying it so why is this thread not stopping. we have established that we cant prove god. evn those who believe in god have said they cant prove he exists. it is a belief. it dosent mean were weak or looking for comfort, c'mon it would have been so much easier for me to have no religion and party all day all night with no thought in mind about the reason for my existence or where im going, but i cant do that because after all the questioning of god i did i found it in my heart to accept that god does exist. and btw why does someone keep metioning noahs' ark. whats that got to do with gods existence?

 

[Sophie777]

Not-That-Bright you really are very intelligent. Do you ever think about lecturing in this stuff?

 

[musashi]

take 2

Im sooo slow in replying!

Not-that-bright- (your name misleads me)
The bible- boring?!! really? its the most popular book on earth mate! seriously, its not boring... if anything it may be a little hard to understand if you dont really know much about it, .. and hey, i need help with a lot of it, .. but boring? never! … everyones got their own opinions I guess.
Reading your lengthy replies, I would argue that you actually are quite ‘into’ christianity, if you get me.
You’ve got some good q’s and points there bucko , they’re pretty impressive, .. but you actually answer your own arguments. You KNOW Christians believe in God, and you know that its belief and faith in God that everything comes down to.

You understand that if Christians believe God exists- then He is omnipotent (all powerful), omniscient (all knowing) ,omnipresent (everywhere at once) and outside any of the laws of our universe- eg. Time, space, blah .

You know and understand these things-
and yet continue to ridicule the Christian theology that God can work outside OUR understanding. Of course he can, HE’S GOD! I juuust used one of your arguments.
You don’t have to believe it, but its solid rock in Christianity.

I don’t know what else to say, you seem to be pretty knowledgable… but pretty bent on disproving stuff! If I may, .. what exactly do you believe?


Not-that-Bright said

"It was the time... historians look at the way the world was, it was terrible back then... people were looking for hope, they were looking for messiah when someone decided they were the messiah SOME (obviously not all.... the romans did kill him), decided that he was the messiah and the good news he was bringing that everyone good was going to live happily ever after and that their evil kings were going to burn in hell sounded like a good idea to the people of the time...

Remember that just before that time the people we're so wrong they believed that praying would make it rain..

My question to you musashi would be why jesus? there's tangable evidence that mohammed existed, why not him?
There's alot of tangable evidence that states that noahs flood was a lie, various sections of the bible were wrong.

Why accept some tangable evidence and dismiss others?"


Great q's .... I'll be the first to say im not very good at answering q's but, so sorry if they suck.

Firstly...
It was the time? .. From what i know of history and now, .. there hasnt been a time when the world wasn't terrible! Why is it like this? Because of us!

haha, and im going to have to clear something up... Yeah, Jesus did bring good news, but it wasn't that everyone 'good' was going to live happily ever after and that the 'evil kings' were going to burn in hell-

he brought the news that anyone, ANYONE, can be saved- evil king or not- and that it was through believing that every person on this earth is infected with 'sin'- noone is good- and that HE was the Way, the Truth , and the Life.

He lived a perfect life , and died- as OUR substitute... , because of the stupid things we've done - we deserve to die. ( i dont want to guilt trip you here, because thats not what the issues about, but noone can tell me they're perfect.)

So anyway, we deserve to die- and he did it for us because he loves us more than words can express- He took on him all the sins of the world - past, present, and future- and took our punishment. But he also conquered death- and is alive today.

What does this mean for us? We are free from sin... in Gods eyes. This means we can be with him... and he's offered us a chance to hang out with him- GOD- the awesome creator - for eternity.

He also offers an alternative- for those who choose to hate and reject him... hell.

anyway, thats the basic, verrry baasic message of Christianity, which is probably worth mentioning. Again- you'll do better to read it for yourself.

OK- back to your post.

you also said-

Remember that just before that time the people we're so wrong they believed that praying would make it rain.."

huh? people still do believe that! Why wouldn’t they?

People are stupid, we cant trust them. If that is your point, i agree with you!

The thing is, God doesnt change because of what people do.

SO, IF he said ‘talk to me and ask me for rain if you need it, and ill give it to you because I love you’-
Then he’ll do it. Just because people act stupidly, it doesn’t falsify the words of God. Comprende? This is true in Christian theology- even if you don’t believe it.


But that wasn’t even the most important question you asked . I hope your eyes aren’t glazing over, this is getting long!


Why Jesus? Why not other beliefs?

Simply, Christianity is a world away from other ‘religions’- it rests on grace – (treated great when u don’t deserve to be), forgiveness, and love- extreme, sacrificial love.
It does not and CANNOT comply with other religions- this agnosticism argument- a waste of time.

Jesus said and did a whole lot of cool stuff- the words that came from his lips are words of wisdom that noone else has uttered. There is evidence that He existed, and records of his life.

The Old Testament follows the nation of Israel- who believed in God. Started with Adam- continued down the track- you’ve probably heard of Moses and those dudes.

Throughout the hundreds of years that the Old Testament compiles from- a whole lot of books by different people who believed in this same God- .. a messiah is promised.
That messiah- you know it- turned out to be Jesus!

Tangible evidence for other beliefs? Why not mohammad?

It has, inevitably, come down to what I think. You might ‘believe’ in evolution- similarly, but soooo differently;
I believe that jesus was speaking the truth, and that he was God.
I believe that Christianity is the only way to life- on earth and after earth.
I am not concerned with the discrepancies that follow, BECAUSE- as Jesus said in 2 simple sentences-

“For God so LOVED the world, that he sent his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him.”

That’s from John 3 :16,17 …im sure you’ve heard it before.

And , a verse that YOU quoted!!

"I am the way, the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.” John 14:6

those are the reasons I believe, however I don’t reckon anyone can prove Christianity is real to you ‘not that bright’.
It will never make sense to you, but, as im sure youve heard before, .. why should God make sense?

It’s a personal decision everyone has to make and I will be praying (talking to) God for you… if you like it or not!

I can assure you the only reason why I am a Christian is because I believe with all my heart, soul and mind that Jesus loves me and showed me grace , when im a huge fat scab and deserve nothing. Im not in it for anything else other than the reason that I believe it to be true. I love other people and want them to know my Lord and Saviour. I am not the only one.

The following websites are awesome for q’s and answers-


http://www.truthwalk.com/Feedback/index.html

http://www.studentbodyworld.com/q_and_a_forum.htm

http://www.studentbodyworld.com/Q and A/is_jesus_really_the_only_way.htm

 

[Not-That-Bright]

Ummm no it wouldn't because in the end you die, and it's much nicer to think gods there...
Or that he's going to get the bad people, maybe you hate how bad this world is and like thinking that god punishes the wicked?
I dunno, there's a multitude of JUSTIFIED reasons you would WANT TO BELIEVE.

I just ask that you guys accept that those are your reasons for believing, there is no believing because of faith, because faith is a belief without proof.... so basically you believe without proof because you believe without proof... good work geniuses, the question is WHY.. and i gave some possible reasons..

 

[Comrade nathan]

The world is in Dire Straights and we all need some good news...Jesus is that good news. Others may beleive that their god is the good news and that is totally their opinion which they have every right to.

"hey lets do something about the worlds problem's"-athiest, "why would we do that, jesus is in our hearts, he his so great we have all we need why would we want anything else"-Christain "oh but we must in these terriable times, we have nothing, we need more, we live in oppression"-atheist "but my minister said that we dont take anything into the afterlife, and the afterlife is so much better why dont we just pray to go instead"- Christain.

If the world ends tomorrow and I was wrong there is no God...then i have lived a good life with no guilt and no burden. I am a free person.

NO guilt, you have no guilt that you support religion. In our country we have not hada major problem like the story i made up above, but in poorer countris this has been the reality. In the Russian revolution people had to deal with this fideism, in Spain when the syndicalist deafeted the facist they had to deal with this. Being a catholic country there were many fundementals who would not help in the deafeting of the facist and creating a better society, because of their believe in Jesus. When Allende was kicked out of leadership in a coup in Chile many priest told the people they should pray, while the coup slaughtered people. In today's undeveloped world this is still is the problem the belief in God is stoping the oppressed people of the world from rising up.

If you want to believe in God so you can ignore reality you might as well bury your head in the sand, it is just as effective.

Beleif in God is Hope....Its not about being popular or working your but off in this word to get to the next. It is about love and hope

Our ideas do not create the world, the world creates our ideas. Just because alot of people feel happy believing in Jesus doesnt mean its reality.

 

[Not-That-Bright]

lol good point nathan,
"There are people starving in africa! lets go help them now!" - Atheist
"Lets pray to god to give them food!" - Theist

Think about it.

 

[Sophie777]

everyone keeps saying it so why is this thread not stopping. we have established that we cant prove god. evn those who believe in god have said they cant prove he exists. it is a belief. it dosent mean were weak or looking for comfort, c'mon it would have been so much easier for me to have no religion and party all day all night with no thought in mind about the reason for my existence or where im going, but i cant do that because after all the questioning of god i did i found it in my heart to accept that god does exist. and btw why does someone keep metioning noahs' ark. whats that got to do with gods existence?

You are a coward. It is so simple for you to put down my way of life. "Party all day and night" do you think this is what I do? Or do you think maybe there are many things in my life that I have to cope with that are impossible to do. Sometimes it is extremely difficult but thats no reason to put faith in something to 'save me'. I would rather deal with things. If you want to get spiteful about ways of life then maybe you should read more..

All 'you' do is fail to face problems and mask your instabilities and vulnerabilites by turning to God. When will you face the pain of life on your own? Never. You get sad, so Goid is doing it for a reason? But when something goes well, God does that too? It isn't fair to put down what I believe and do, my purpose in life is outside some religion. I don't think i will "party all day and night" and I think that gOD doesn't have answers to my existence, I have to find that answer.

 

[Comrade nathan]

everyone keeps saying it so why is this thread not stopping. we have established that we cant prove god. evn those who believe in god have said they cant prove he exists. it is a belief. it dosent mean were weak or looking for comfort, c'mon it would have been so much easier for me to have no religion and party all day all night with no thought in mind about the reason for my existence or where im going, but i cant do that because after all the questioning of god i did i found it in my heart to accept that god does exist. and btw why does someone keep metioning noahs' ark. whats that got to do with gods existence?

The material world is objective. Our beliefs do not change what it is. We can not proove anything by our beliefs or what is in our heart. We can only prove things by (1) studying the material world and coming to conclusions
(2) studying how ideas are developed (ie innate thoughts real or not, sensations refelect objective reality or something representing objective reality)

Just claiming god exist because you believe in him isnt cutting it. At least if you do beleive in god try to prove Innate thoughts are reall. That is a start. Not one of you Theist have done this. If you read any Christain Philosopher they try to prove innate thoughts exist, why? because if they do then how do we gain them. The christains believe God. If you want to debate about the reality of a higher form then you must attack from a philosophical backgrounds. Read som John Locke he is good.

We should pause this debate and commence at a latter time when the Thiest can start to debate gods existance on the grounds or epistemology. Untill then you are failing to prove anything.