Does God exist? (12 Viewers)

[Stevo.]

Moreover:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gp2eOHOlBxE

*goes off to find more music by Nine Inch Nails

 

[*TRUE*]

Life does not grow in a vacuum. You have cultural aspects influence your own faith, substantially statistically modified by your own geographical co-ordinates, therefore your own revelation is in direct correlation with your latitude and longitude

Well im sure you know all about my life Schroedinger. And im sure you understand me.
I dont know HOW you figure that. I live in a culture that goes almost completely against my faith.
I am up against a tidal wave with what i believe.

 

[Enteebee]

My argument for the potential existence of God, or that is, a universal consciousness is pretty simple really, on a subatomic level consciousness collapses probability waves, that is to say, fundamentally, a thing is not certain until it observed, nothing cannot observe nothing, therefore at some point there had to be an initial observation, this is what we refer to as God.

Observation doesn't mean what you think it does in an everyday sense
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Measurement_in_quantum_mechanics

The idea of a universal consciousness CANNOT be proven or disproved

When something cannot be proven or disproved and is such an extraordinary claim (thus requiring extraordinary evidence - Carl Sagan) I usually don't believe in it... kinda like why I don't believe in fairies, or other Gods. The flying spaghetti monster CANNOT be proven or disproved.

I think those throwing stones at others for harbouring antiquated religious beliefs should look at the revaluations and revision of what was once 'contemporary' scientific belief, there is no more permanency or solidarity in modern scientific thought, than we can presume for people pointing wands at the sky to call down the sun god, and, on a basic level, you can thank religion for society.

Well it is my position that those claiming a sun god existed etc were always wrong, even with the evidence they had at hand they had no reason to believe a sun god existed. There has however been good evidence for many former beliefs of science... For the most part it hasn't changed that much though, just been revised i.e. Newtonian Physics/Evolution.

The beauty of science is that it is constantly challenging its-self to present the most accurate account of the world we have from evidence.

Something I found funny here Kieran was that you criticised someone in this thread for attempting to utilise religion to prove religion, aren't you attempting to use science to prove science? What if the laws and governing elements of science are temporal and dependent on a gracious god allowing them to be constants?

You can't "prove" science, it is a methodology... unless you want to get into some philosophical debate about verificationalism or something? But if that were the case I sincerely doubt anyone would be using science to prove science :S

I'm not defending the fundamentalists, but, I believe there is a lot to be gained from the bible or from other religious texts.

Sure, I agree.

Besides, if one chooses to look a little outside the square there's a lot of potentiality for extremely complex metaphor in the bible, for instance, seven days... somebody please tell me how long a day is when there's not yet light? One would presume that might be a really long time.

Or one might presume that's a wild confabulation to make it seem ok by believers... I think I'd use a little occams razor there.

 

[emytaylor164]

Well im sure you know all about my life Schroedinger. And im sure you understand me.
I dont know HOW you figure that. I live in a culture that goes almost completely against my faith.
I am up against a tidal wave with what i believe.

Yeah it is not easy been a christian in a world in which following the world is so attractive. You dont know nothing about us Schroedinger or what has happened in our lives.

 

[*TRUE*]

Fuck, at least I can be safe in the knowledge that if the Christian god did exist, he'd send people like TRUE and emytaylor to hell.

Why do u think that?
And why would you want me or Emy in hell?

 

[Enteebee]

Why do u think that?
And why would you want me or Emy in hell?

Do you want me to go to hell? I mean, if I never find jesus, do you want me to go to hell then? Or do you disagree with god?

 

[phatchance]

Science, on the other hand, says 'hit me with experiences... let's see what patterns emerge'. Theories are created, hypotheses are tested and rejected, and the whole process repeats ad infinitum. I geuss you might call it a knowledge creating algorithm.

Yes, however as an example of why this doesn't stand up in a religious context and interpretation of the universe.

Let's say you create a machine, it deals with numbers in such a way that 2+2 = 5. You are the creator of the machine so you understand this, you also leave an instruction manual that says your faith in this manual will be tested, 2+2 = 4. Some people come to the machine, they turn it on, they see that over time 2+2 consistantly ='s 5 and therefore deduce that the instruction manual is wrong.

Who is right? Those using a progressive system of deduction, or those with blind faith?

 

[emytaylor164]

its your own fault if you go to hell i do not want you to but it is up to you

 

[Stevo.]

Maybe the reason some of us don't believe in 'god' is how stupid alot of god botherers are, e.g. you and Em.

 

[Slidey]

Falsifiability.

Peer-reviewed falsifiability and proof by exhaustion.

It's better than anything religion has come up with, so unless you can provide a better frame work phatchance (appropriate name given the situation), you can kindly bunk off.

*goes off to find more music by Nine Inch Nails

With Teeth is the best album. I recommend: Hand That Feeds, All The Love In The World, Every Day Is Exactly The Same, Besides You In Time... anything from With Teeth, really.

how do you get that logic?

You guys don't use logic, remember?

 

[Enteebee]

Let's say you create a machine, it deals with numbers in such a way that 2+2 = 5. You are the creator of the machine so you understand this, you also leave an instruction manual that says your faith in this manual will be tested, 2+2 = 4. Some people come to the machine, they turn it on, they see that over time 2+2 consistantly ='s 5 and therefore deduce that the instruction manual is wrong.

Who is right? Those using a progressive system of deduction, or those with blind faith?

In that case? The people using deduction, it is silly to follow the manual. By the way you also have to include that well... there's a lot of other versions of the manual, a lot of evidence that these manuals weren't divinely inspired etc... The only reason it seems silly to say otherwise is because we KNOW in your example it's the machine tricking us, we don't have that luxury in the real world.

 

[*TRUE*]

Do you want me to go to hell? I mean, if I never find jesus, do you want me to go to hell then? Or do you disagree with god?

NO WAY i dont want you in hell. NO WAY NO WAY NO WAY. I dont only come on here so i can feel like the most retarded, ill educated , prudish female in the world.
I sincerely hope that by sharing what i believe , maybe it might sow seeds, somehow.
I know that if you ever choose to look for God , first of all putting aside all your own understanding and having faith , you WILL.
It will be up to you.

 

[emytaylor164]

NO WAY i dont want you in hell. NO WAY NO WAY NO WAY. I dont only come on here so i can feel like the most retarded, ill educated , prudish female in the world.
I sincerely hope that by sharing what i believe , maybe it might sow seeds, somehow.
I know that if you ever choose to look for God , first of all putting aside all your own understanding and having faith , you WILL.
It will be up to you.

Exactly

 

[*TRUE*]

Maybe the reason some of us don't believe in 'god' is how stupid alot of god botherers are, e.g. you and Em.

No. whether im stupid or not. Its on your head.

 

[Enteebee]

NO WAY i dont want you in hell. NO WAY NO WAY NO WAY. I dont only come on here so i can feel like the most retarded, ill educated , prudish female in the world.
I sincerely hope that by sharing what i believe , maybe it might sow seeds, somehow.
I know that if you ever choose to look for God , first of all putting aside all your own understanding and having faith , you WILL.
It will be up to you.

So you don't want God to send me to hell even after he's judged me to go to hell? It's like not wanting a criminal to go to jail... if you think the justice system is just, you wouldn't have a problem with it.

You must have a problem with God's justice system, he must seem 'imperfect' to you?

 

[Slidey]

Yes, however as an example of why this doesn't stand up in a religious context and interpretation of the universe.

Let's say you create a machine, it deals with numbers in such a way that 2+2 = 5. You are the creator of the machine so you understand this, you also leave an instruction manual that says your faith in this manual will be tested, 2+2 = 4. Some people come to the machine, they turn it on, they see that over time 2+2 consistantly ='s 5 and therefore deduce that the instruction manual is wrong.

Who is right? Those using a progressive system of deduction, or those with blind faith?

That happens to be one of the stupidest metaphysical attempts to dismiss the framework of science which I have ever had the displeasure of reading.

 

[Captain Gh3y]

Yep

Salvation thru faith alone detaches morality from salvation
Logically according to your beliefs, you can do whatever you like, sin as much as you want and be unrepentant, unchanged, but you'll still be equally as holy as any of the saints or the Apostles just because you have that faith.
This isn't really forgiveness or sanctification, it's just covering up your sin and pretending it's gone away. Your beliefs are empty, hollow and worthless.

moar words

 

[emytaylor164]

So you don't want God to send me to hell even after he's judged me to go to hell? It's like not wanting a criminal to go to jail... if you think the justice system is just, you wouldn't have a problem with it.

You must have a problem with God's justice system, he must seem 'imperfect' to you?

No i have no problem with his 'judgement system' if you never sinned you wouldnt have to worry

 

[phatchance]

Observation doesn't mean what you think it does in an everyday sense
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Measurement_in_quantum_mechanics

My point stands, no matter what the mechanism for observance is, that is God. Therefore a small amount of scientific reasoning tells us a God exists.

When something cannot be proven or disproved and is such an extraordinary claim (thus requiring extraordinary evidence - Carl Sagan) I usually don't believe in it... kinda like why I don't believe in fairies, or other Gods. The flying spaghetti monster CANNOT be proven or disproved.

Pointless. Opinion. No scientific value.

Well it is my position that those claiming a sun god existed etc were always wrong, even with the evidence they had at hand they had no reason to believe a sun god existed. There has however been good evidence for many former beliefs of science... For the most part it hasn't changed that much though, just been revised i.e. Newtonian Physics/Evolution.

Yeah, the entire quantum revolution didn't completely reshape our perception of physics or anything, I'm sorry, you are correct. The bible hasn't changed 'that much' either over time, but I guarantee you'd be willing to seize on any scrap of evidence you possibly could in that regard.

The beauty of science is that it is constantly challenging its-self to present the most accurate account of the world we have from evidence.

The beauty of religion is that it provides a simplistic and all encompassing answer to every question you have ever asked, whilst allowing rigorous scientific progression within its framework.

You can't "prove" science, it is a methodology... unless you want to get into some philosophical debate about verificationalism or something? But if that were the case I sincerely doubt anyone would be using science to prove science :S

This is just ridiculous. My point was very clear. It's methodology vs. methodology and I explained that you could not have the rationale both ways.

Or one might presume that's a wild confabulation to make it seem ok by believers... I think I'd use a little occams razor there.

Or one might presume shut up. See I can do that too.

 

[Stevo.]

There is an ideal that is Christianity and being Christian that I feel alot of 'Christians' seem to lack, and the utter shamelessness portrayed by alot of ignorant and often arrogant 'Christians' are a deterrent considering that faith. That and the fact that there are so many things just wrong with how the came to believe in what they believe.