Does God exist? (9 Viewers)

[Not-That-Bright]

they ask it because they havent received a decent answer

Because they place a burden of proof or disproof on God which they don't hold true for other things. Then again maybe I just don't understand what it is that I'm professing disbelief in? While you may think God is X, maybe it's really Y. Perhaps St Augustine was right, maybe God is inately intelligible to Human beings... But I think I know this as well as I know all other things.

I've come to the conclusion that God belief doesn't matter any more than as an interesting inquiry into human culture/history.

 

[cheesman]

but dont ppl who asked for infallable evidence for god (as they attack and reject everything else) do the same?

someone still answer my question - evidence that god doesnt exist

 

[Not-That-Bright]

but dont ppl who asked for infallable evidence for god (as they attack and reject everything else) do the same?

Not really. While it's true we do make many leaps of 'faith' (induction) whether we be atheists or theists, my contention is that other supernatural beings or indeed such metaphysical hypothesis as the matrix (or some endless dream scenario) are generally not brought up as counters when someone makes a claim about their percieved reality. My argument is that it's special pleading to ask for God to be treated differently.

someone still answer my question - evidence that god doesnt exist

I did.

I contend that God's non-existance (as far as I understand the concept of God) is as truthful as anything which we know, for in the realm of possibility where God exists all our truths are likely failures.

 

[Not-That-Bright]

People who believe in a god fundamentally assume that there is some superbeing dude who is qualitiatively different from everything else who knows everything and wont show himself and that you have to have 'faith' in that he exists.

I'd ask why is this idea any different to other supernatural ideas. I think I can fairly well show that it's the same... After that, back to my posts above yours.

 

[Not-That-Bright]

but those who believe in a god often believe and make the assumption that he/she/it is qualitatively different to everything else. Can you make an argument against that assumption?

I'd say that it's possible they're right and it's also possible that there's thousands of other beings/forces which are innately intelligible to human beings, working their way through our lives (pixies making them fall in love etc). It's another possible 'assumption' which cannot be "disproven" (not even in a strictly scientific sense) and any effort they make to attempt to do so can be refuted in the same way as which they refute my disproof of God.

So yea, I feel for them to be consisent and logical they'd have to accept that by whatever means those things are impossible so is their God. Once they've done that, their choice is 'reality' as I imagine it, a magical world of insanity or some sort of dark agnostic abyss.

I don't really think there is a god, but I'm pretty convinced that logic and science (empiricism) isn't designed for such arguments (show me otherwise, because it would be great if it could be).

Well I don't think it really can either. But let me ask you, can science show whether there's any blue giraffe's in africa? Can science even show you whether X medicine works?

 

[lengy]

That's true Chad but they'd just say it was God that created love or something. Anything beyond a single imaginary concept and their heads may implode from even considering the possibility.

 

[withoutaface]

I'd say that it's possible they're right and it's also possible that there's thousands of other beings/forces which are innately intelligible to human beings, working their way through our lives (pixies making them fall in love etc). It's another possible 'assumption' which cannot be "disproven" (not even in a strictly scientific sense) and any effort they make to attempt to do so can be refuted in the same way as which they refute my disproof of God.

So yea, I feel for them to be consisent and logical they'd have to accept that by whatever means those things are impossible so is their God. Once they've done that, their choice is 'reality' as I imagine it, a magical world of insanity or some sort of dark agnostic abyss.



Well I don't think it really can either. But let me ask you, can science show whether there's any blue giraffe's in africa?

Yes.

 

[Not-That-Bright]

That's true Chad but they'd just say it was God that created love or something. Anything beyond a single imaginary concept and their heads may implode from even considering the possibility.

Well they can say that if they want but they've got no way to explain why they'd think it's God and not a pixie.

 

[cheesman]

how is it not logical to consider the idea of a creator?
like, why couldnt everything have been created?
thats a bit more rational than just inventing sum supernatural pixie thing

 

[Not-That-Bright]

how is it not logical to consider the idea of a creator?
like, why couldnt everything have been created?
thats a bit more rational than just inventing sum supernatural pixie thing

Creator of what? Everything? The beginning of everything? I'm positing a creator for love, it's a pixie. But no, it's not any more rational until you can show me why it is. The fact that you can reason that 'it MUST be a bit more rational than just inventing sum supernatural pixie thing' tells me that at least you can see that if I'm right, 'God' belief is irrational.

 

[sam04u]

someone still answer my question - evidence that god doesnt exist

God didn't end the war in the middle east when I asked him too.

Now you answer my question.
1) What are your beliefs on this topic, and why do you hold them? Show working. :rofl:

 

[Not-That-Bright]

the link is broken (Am i expected to see Blue painted Giraffes in Africa? Because i will slap you hard ).

Yes.

 

[Season]

Why does everyone want 'rational' proof for God, what sort of proof would you like to have? Scientific?? Mathematic?? There are just so many things in our world that definitely exist but cannot be prooved using science or maths

For example love, my mother loves me , I can tell by the way she acts towards me and how we interact, however those very same actions could be prooved to be something else like envy, or admiration. But I and many other people know that this isn't the case.

Most of the reason I believe is because I believe that there is a purpose to life. Biologically we as humans are meant to reproduce period. Religion offers a different answer that we are striving to make a difference and to better ourselves. If there is only a biological reason then why do we even enjoy life if all it comes down to is kids and death.

If life is all about reproduction then this makes everything else irrelevant, life itself has no value. The concepts of wrong and right have no meaning. What Hitler, Stalin or any other mass murder did doesn't matter.

Then there is other things which don't seem to be answered by science such as miracles, morality, and the existence of the world.

For most of the world, religion is something to believe it, something bigger then yourself and more meaningful to live your life by. Only a few crazy people take it to extremes. Even the war in Iraq is now just about America refusing to admit that they have failed to turn a middle eastern country into a western country, that's an example of stupidity not a failed religion. Maybe this time America will learn that they're not the policeman of the world (unlikely).

 

[lengy]

Fail. You can give your life purpose without religion.

 

[Not-That-Bright]

Why does everyone want 'rational' proof for God, what sort of proof would you like to have? Scientific?? Mathematic??

For starters I'd just like more proof than there is for pixie's being the agents of love.

There are just so many things in our world that definitely exist but cannot be prooved using science or maths

Well first, I think alot of things can be 'proved' which can't yet be completely explained. For the most part though, unless you're going to ask science to disprove that blue != red (or something equally redundant) then I think I'll muster a greater answer than can be done for God.

For example love, my mother loves me , I can tell by the way she acts towards me and how we interact, however those very same actions could be prooved to be something else like envy, or admiration. But I and many other people know that this isn't the case.

You know because she tells you she loves you, she does all these acts which are common to someone loving you etc. You're basing your statement using inductive logic (X has meant Y, so if Z has characteristics of X it is probably also Y).... That isn't what's happening with God.

Most of the reason I believe is because I believe that there is a purpose to life.

An ultimate purpose? What is it exactly?

Biologically we as humans are meant to reproduce period.

That's what our gene's are programmed for... our genes are essentially 'selfish', that doesn't mean we as a species have to act in that way.

Religion offers a different answer that we are striving to make a difference and to better ourselves.

You can get that answer without religion.

If there is only a biological reason then why do we even enjoy life if all it comes down to is kids and death.

Because our genes, in the process of attempting to reproduce themselves better, gave us a consciousness... from then we've been largely in control of our own destiny.

If life is all about reproduction then this makes everything else irrelevant, life itself has no value. The concepts of wrong and right have no meaning. What Hitler, Stalin or any other mass murder did doesn't matter.

Do you really think atheists think this way? Ultimately there is no moral standard, this is true... But we're guided (for starters) by a common history and we have a common evolution leading to things such as empathy etc.

Then there is other things which don't seem to be answered by science such as miracles, morality, and the existence of the world.

Give me an example of a miracle.

morality

So? The questions are unanswerable because there is no ultimately correct answer.

the existence of the world

If science had all that figured out there'd be no need for scientists.

For most of the world, religion is something to believe it, something bigger then yourself and more meaningful to live your life by.

Yes it is, but they're wrong I'm afraid.

Only a few crazy people take it to extremes.

Something doesn't need to be particularily extreme to have a decent effect on our world, but I agree.

Even the war in Iraq is now just about America refusing to admit that they have failed to turn a middle eastern country into a western country, that's an example of stupidity not a failed religion.

America never cared about turning a middle eastern country into a western country, they cared about securing their strategic interests. But yes, it had nothing to do with religion - Your point?

 

[lengy]

Moral questions can be debated by philosophers.

 

[katherine_kim87]

I've got a great answer for you.

http://thewayofthemaster.com is a great site! the way they evangelise is really effective.

IF YOU DIED TONIGHT ARE U 100% SURE U'LL GO TO HEAVEN?

Yes...No?? If your answer is no, nothing's more important than your salvation. Yeh, i know you might say "but I am Christian" but are you 100% sure and SO certain about your afterlife? if you're not, you could not be saved. This is why it's very essential to take the 3 tests. (which are on the site) You don't want to go to HELL right? It's a place of never-ending fire, and you willl be buring in fire for ETERNITY. Would you sell your eyes for a million dollars? No? Well, Jesus said if your eyes cause you to sin (breaking God's laws in the bible, this is including the 10 commandments) then he said pluck your eyeballs out because it's better than entering Heaven with no eyes that going to Hell with 2 eyes and buring in FIRE forever! So can you see from this how important your salvation is?

You might say, but I don't really believe in Heaven and Hell. If you were on an airplane and the plane was about to crash and you had a parachute under your seat, would you put it on? The parachute represents Jesus Christ, the airplane represents your life, and your death (dropping from the airpline and dying) represents your after life (HELL). Now have you put on the Lord Jesus Christ like a parachute? Or have you just 'believed' in him and looked at the parachute? Putting on Jesus Christ means you need to seriously think, Am I putting GOD first in everything I do in life? everything to glorify GOD ? Jesus said in the BIBLE that we should love our GOD with all our mind, soul and body. And our love for GOD should be so great that our love for our parents, sisters, brothers, friends is HATRED compared to how much we love GOD!. HAve you done that? You don't know when you'll die, you can die anytime, tommorow, next week, you don't know the future, no one does except GOD.

A person, when they're about to fall off a plane can believe they can fly, and BELIEVE there is no gravity. But the REALITY is that, that person will fall and DIE. That's the consequence and no matter what your beliefs are, you cannot change consequence. You may say , but we can't see GOD, so how is he reality? Well,you can't see gravity, but it's there right? But you might say "but u can prove gravity is there coz things do drop from the air to the ground by scientific evidence". Well my answer is, you can also prove GOD's existence by using scientific evidence. When you have a building, you know there is a "builder" right? It's like that, when you see this EArth, can't you see there is a designer? Do you think Earht just...poppped out of NOWHERE? When you see a car, you knwo there is someone who DESIGNED that car right? You say, but we can't see GOD, how do we know he did it? Well, if you find an old old old pyramid, and the 'builder' of that pyramid was unknown. You know someone BUILT it, but just coz u don't know who built it 1000 and 1000s of years ago, doesn't mean there WASN'T a builder right?? It's like that, GOD DID create this universe, we just weren't there to see it happening. But you might say "But GOD is forigiving and merciful, he'll forgive me....".

If you were a criminal who has commited very bad crimes, if the JUDGE is a good judge, shouldnt' that judge sentence you GUILTY, regardless of how merciful or foriginvg that Judge may be? because that judge have to deliver justice. E.g. if someone murdered your mother, and the murder says to t he judge "oh judge...pleaase have mercy on me, you're forgiving and loving right? i know you will forgive me." the judge will say "no, i am a just judge, therefore I sentence you Guilty or murder. You are going to jail." That's justice, if that judge said "ok....i forgive you", isn't that unfair to you? he killed your mother!

It's like that, you have broken GOD's laws, and GOD needs to judge you correctly, so if you are guilty, then he needs to sentence you guilty. If that murderer who killed ur mother goes to Heaven, would you be happy? NO. That is why, GOD needs to make the right judgement. Now...you may say.."but i'm not a bad person..i'm much better than murderers...or criminals and I read the bible and i believe in GOD and Jesus Christ." okay . I have a quesiton for you. Do you think you're a good person?? You may say "yes, i'm a good person." okay, have you ever lied before ?? you may say "yes, who didn't? we all do". Well then, if you lie, what are you callED? the answer is : "A LIAR". okay, next one, have you ever stolen anything? You may say "nope, i never did. I never robbed a bank, never stolen anything." and i'll say "are u sure? u just told me ur a liar.....not even something really....small? like ur mum's cheescake....i dont' know. A coin on the ground??? that belongs to someone else?? Now..the value of what u steal doesn't matter. It i took out $1 from ur wallet now and stole it, i'm still a STealer right???because that $1 belongs to you and i stole it. So even if you stole something so small, you're still a thief.

Now we've only looked at 2 of the 10 commandments, and you've already broken them. Jesus said, if you break even 1 commandment,it's the same as breaking ALL of them. So....are you sure you're a good person?????? Because by ur own admission, you are a liar, and a thief?? You haven't stolen anything??? okay...then have u ever said GOD's name in vain?? like use his name as a swear word??? I think you have i remmeber when we were friends u always said "OMG"...in 'vain' means not just using his name as a swear word, but also using his name for 'no reason' and no importance. NOW there is 7 more commandments....and you've already broken 3? So...if you died now and GOD judged you according to his HOLY law, the 10 commandments...would you go to HELL or HEAVEN??? "HELL" right?? ...uh oh....this is BADDD news... Neither u...nor I want you to go to hell..........do you want a way out?????????

Well...there is a way out of this. You need to REPENT from ur sins, repent means (turn away from it and try ur best to never do it again) and put ur 100% trust in JESUS CHRIST to save you from hell and PUT ON JESUS CHRIST like u would put on a parachute to save ur life! Jesus will save ur SOUL, from HELL which is infinitely more precious than ur life now. Because ur afterlife is 'eternity', and has no end. Once u end up in hell, u can't go to heaven! u'll be in hell forever! Do you want that ??? now don't be surprised, if those ppl who call themselves Christians all go to hell!! because it's not enough to just go to church, and sing hymns and read a BIBLE or praying. If you pray and u continuously break all the 10 commandments, your faith is not
real! and you're not really pleasing GOD are you?????

You need to seriously think about ur life, think...is watching drama something that is pleasing to GOD??? is putting on make up....pleasing to him? because in the BIble, he commanded women to dress modestly....and he specifically said "don't put on jewellery or plaiting of the hair (stylish hairstyle)" if u want bible references i will give them to u., i have heaps. so think about ur life......am i really doing what is right for GOD? so that he will take me to heaven when i die........or am i not doing the things pleasing to him......and am i heading to hell? I'm sorry...judging by what the BIBLE says (not what i say...i am not judging u)....by GOD's judgement from the BIBLE.....u are going to HELL..... You don't believe this? Check in the bible! GOD said....evildoers.....thieves...liars....adulterers....law-breakers...none of these will enter HEAVEN. So...don't u think u need to think about ur salvation???? do u see now...why i care so much about pleasing GOD....? because i don't want to go to Hell! GOD....is real....just coz u can't see him..doesn't mean he's not there...our sight is so LIMITED...it's really nothing! we can't even see GRAVITY....

Hopefully this made u think about the possibility of GOD's existence..and if he is real, that u are heading to HEll...but there is a way out, do u want to take this chance or not? this chance might only come once...since u don't know when death will strike u.

A lot of people say they are 'christian', but are they really going to Heaven?

This is not about whether u are a homosexual, athiest, agnostic, woteva. This is about whether u have repented from ur sins seriously or not!.

also visit www.howtogetsaved.blogdrive.com my blog.

May God bless.

 

[ur_inner_child]

Have you read anything in this thread?

Perhaps you should reorganise your thoughts into a more logical manner. You've just vomited all your thoughts that mostly have little to do with anything.

It's just more like your take on what it takes to be a good christian and preaching on how we've broken rules etc, than anything in this thread.

 

[Not-That-Bright]

http://thewayofthemaster.com is a great site! the way they evangelise is really effective.

The banana guy? lol. http://youtube.com/watch?v=2z-OLG0KyR4

Katherine: Are you familiar with St. Aquinas or St. Augustine's work? Just to know how knowledgable you are on theology before I start. For example:

It is likely that the bible is not something to be taken literally, that the true nature of our world is such that it is intelligible to humans. Therefore we should accept scientific findings about our world

------------------

Morals

To expand on the problems with 'god' morality as Jezz outlined them, where do you get your morals from when you say 'God'? Is this from your religious text? It doesn't take a great moral philosopher to see that the bible isn't what our modern people would consider moralistic. So then you'll reply "some is not to be taken literally", which is where the problem begins: By what means do you decide what is to be taken seriously, what is to be rejected etc?

Your morals, independant from any holy text.

 

[KFunk]

Why does everyone want 'rational' proof for God...?

If you're going to throw rationality out the window then are you willing to admit irrational disproofs of god into this debate?