Does God exist? (13 Viewers)

[KFunk]

No but we can attribute a possiblilty to the proposition that a particular interpretation of god exists. The range of possible gods is infinate, so the probability that a given god, say the Christian interpretation of God is correct is infinately small.

I didn't necessarily intend 'god exists' to be taken in the general sense which doesn't refer to a specific cocneption of god. Naturally you need to define god in some sense before you can even start to tackle the task of attributing probability (that is, if such a thing can even be done). I feel I should question your means of attributing an "infinitely small" probability to the proposition 'a christian god exists'. That there is an infinite set of conceivable gods (off the top of my head I think there are some, somewhat rediculous, ways to establish this formally) does not, to my mind, allow you to assert of any god from this set that its probability of existence must be infinitely small (note that if it is a none zero quantity it may still exist, nonetheless, even if we have no good probabilistic reason to accept its existence).

Something worth considering is that even within the judeo-christian concept of god there might be room for infinite variation of some sort --> e.g. we could consider a god which created a person with beard length 2cm versus one that chose 3cm (or something along these lines). Suppose that we accept your idea that the probability that any specific conception of god exists is infinitely small. What if I then asked you about the proposition 'Some god from the set G_jc (of gods of the judeo-christian variety) exists'? What kind of probability would you attribute to that set given that there are an infinite number of specific gods whose existence would satisfy its truth conditions?

God + probability 'calculations' = messy

 

[Iron]

All discussions about god should be banned from this forum and anyone who brings it up should have their IP blocked. Then they should be hunted down, raped and murdered. Who's with me?

I think God is the most crucial concept for young adults like us to independently sort out at our age. There are good and considered opinions in this thread, like KFunks', NTBs' and Pwars'.
What I object to is the inane simplifications that are arrogantly spewed out by the many intellectual lazy bones.
This thread, in as much as it informs and challenges the opinions of developing minds, is probably the most important one on all of BoS.

 

[sam04u]

Why bother though. No one is going to change their opinion no matter how excellent you think Pwars' posts are.

Well, even though most people wont change their opinion, they might better develop them, and that's just as beneficial to them. My first arguments in this thread were "without religion there would be no morals", which is debateable, but had alot of logical fallacies in it.

Now after debating many different people such as those from the "rational response squad", I've developed my ideas better, and came to different conclusions.

 

[Tulipa]

pffft. you cant argue with christians. they are so brainwashed they will never change their views. no matter what you say they will keep repeating the same fallacies.

But that's not what's happening here at all.

It's not athiests vs Christians. Read the thread a bit.

 

[Scooter89]

That's pretty idiotic. Disbelieving in god because you hate religion is really not an argument at all.

neither is branding someone an idiot because of their beliefs

 

[Raaaaaachel]

If there is a god why is there so much suffering in the world?

Christians inevitably say this is because god gave us free will, which we need to be happy.

But since god is omnipotent, why couldn't he simply make us able to be happy without free will? Or he could give us the freedom to make many good choices, but not to do horrible things like rape and murder.

Also why will people not do terrible things in heaven? Presumably we still have free will there.

Heaven is another ridiculous concept. How could anyone be happy for eternity?

 

[Tulipa]

Yeah am I the only person on this entire forum that thinks the concept of existing eternally is utterly horrifying?

When I die, I want to die. I don't want to have to keep existing. Otherwise there's no point to anything I do.

Totally agree with you there.

Both the prospect of nothingness and heaven freak me out. Death as a whole is something I'm not ready to think indepth about.

 

[Raaaaaachel]

Yeah surely heaven for eternity would soon be just as painful as hell.

 

[Tulipa]

Yeah surely heaven for eternity would soon be just as painful as hell.

Not for some people, not from their viewpoint.

There are a lot of religious people who spend their whole lives dedicated to God in order to get into heaven.

 

[Raaaaaachel]

Not for some people, not from their viewpoint.

There are a lot of religious people who spend their whole lives dedicated to God in order to get into heaven.

Yeah my point is that they are fools. I know they have a different point and I hate that they expect their bizarre views to be respected. Their views are crazy, they deserve no such respect.

 

[Tulipa]

Yeah my point is that they are fools. I know they have a different point and I hate that they expect their bizarre views to be respected. Their views are crazy, they deserve no such respect.

How arrogant do you want to be? Who are you to say that this is all bullshit? A 16/17 year old girl who knows everything?

To be honest, you're just as bad as the people you criticize. They can easily turn around and say the same thing as you. You're not providing proof to back up your claims and until you do, no one is going to take you seriously.

[nb: I'm a committed atheist]

 

[Raaaaaachel]

How arrogant do you want to be? Who are you to say that this is all bullshit? A 16/17 year old girl who knows everything?

To be honest, you're just as bad as the people you criticize. They can easily turn around and say the same thing as you. You're not providing proof to back up your claims and until you do, no one is going to take you seriously.

[nb: I'm a committed atheist]

A 19-20 year old girl who knows very little.

I dont need to show proof that god doesnt exist which as ive pointed out is impossible. They are claiming that something exist and believing in it blindly wihtout any evidence. That qualifies as completely stupid. You would consider someone who believed in pink unicorns or elves or a giant rabbit that greated the world crazy, but if its under the guise of religion its like for some reason we have to respect it. I dont have to prove my claim that it is irrational to believe in god. Im sure you and most christians would not believe in a giant rabbit which created the universe, and of course you cant prove it doesnt exist either!

 

[Enteebee]

Both the prospect of nothingness and heaven freak me out. Death as a whole is something I'm not ready to think indepth about.

I agree on both counts, but I have in the past thought about death a lot. When I was 12 and realised there probably isn't any heaven, I spent probably an entire week with just this terribly daunting, cold feeling permeating all throughout my body - It still happens sometimes

I actually find it rather inspiring, remembering my mortality often gets me to go out and do things/take little risks that I might otherwise not have taken (to my detriment). I think Shakespeare had a similar idea by leaving a skull on his workbench.

 

[Tulipa]

A 19-20 year old girl who knows very little.

I dont need to show proof that god doesnt exist which as ive pointed out is impossible. They are claiming that something exist and believing in it blindly wihtout any evidence. That qualifies as completely stupid. You would consider someone who believed in pink unicorns or elves or a giant rabbit that greated the world crazy, but if its under the guise of religion its like for some reason we have to respect it. I dont have to prove my claim that it is irrational to believe in god. Im sure you and most christians would not believe in a giant rabbit which created the universe, and of course you cant prove it doesnt exist either!

You are claiming something doesn't exist and doing so blindly.

Same situation. Whilst the Bible is not the best evidence for it, there are sections that are historically accurate. It's not a nothing piece of crap. You're also being incredibly arrogant in stating that your way is right and everyone else is an idiot.

And Oh My God again, I'M AN ATHEIST.

 

[Raaaaaachel]

Awesome we should start a club and call ourselves the 'brights'.

Haha. Totally. Also we should go around to peoples houses on Saturday mornings, wake them at like 8am and try and convert them to athiesm.

 

[lordjay]

You are claiming something doesn't exist and doing so blindly.

Same situation. Whilst the Bible is not the best evidence for it, there are sections that are historically accurate. It's not a nothing piece of crap. You're also being incredibly arrogant in stating that your way is right and everyone else is an idiot.

And Oh My God again, I'M AN ATHEIST.

Well thats her opinion, but obviously she shouldn't call other people idiots for their beliefs. Personally since I'm a Catholic I find it funny to watch all these opinions about God and why religion is b-s. I'm used to taking in those opinions from my athiest friends and I respect their opinions, but at the same time it dosen't really bother me. Of course Religion could be perceived in a more positive light if various changes were made such as better, more balanced teaching of the scriptures and how to live your life. I was watching the (ABC) Compass 2 Part Doco series on Radical Religious Fundamentalism, and it shows why Religion is getting a bad name, because of Radical Interpretations of the scriptures, and because of those radicals using their beliefs to bring religion into various Political and Sectarian conflicts.

For me personally, my religion as well as Buddhist principles I adhere to has really calmed me down as a person spiritually, and has made me a better person in this world. The whole thing of people who "believe in religion has better morals" can be true if they are taught those good morals/ethics. Often the environment that you live and grow up in has a big part to play too, but it is the individual who has to make him/herself a better person. You don't have to believe in God to be a better person but always have a positive attitude to life and always be selfless. There is a lot of negative sentiment towards the question of God and his followers and why they believe in such a thing. Of course thats their opinions, but no one should cuss and diss each other out because of their beliefs. Thats their choice that they don't want to seek out the word of God. My opinions might not have given a definative answer to the question of God's existance, but what I'm saying is Religion (If taught properly and in a Good manner) can help people become better citizens in society.

 

[Iron]

Yeah am I the only person on this entire forum that thinks the concept of existing eternally is utterly horrifying?

When I die, I want to die. I don't want to have to keep existing. Otherwise there's no point to anything I do.

There's actually a quiet Christian doctrine that agrees with you; the afterlife is best understood in the common-sense way - that death is being free and suspended from time, while hell is being trapped in it.

The idea of the afterlife's 'bliss' being interpreted as purely material - full of all the pleasures and things denied on earth contrasted against pain and fire is, i believe, a wrong one.

 

[AsyLum]

If there is a god why is there so much suffering in the world?

Christians inevitably say this is because god gave us free will, which we need to be happy.

But since god is omnipotent, why couldn't he simply make us able to be happy without free will? Or he could give us the freedom to make many good choices, but not to do horrible things like rape and murder.

Also why will people not do terrible things in heaven? Presumably we still have free will there.

Heaven is another ridiculous concept. How could anyone be happy for eternity?

The free-will theodicy St. Augustine; Alvin Plantinga

The soul-making theodicy St. Irenaeus; John Hick

The natural-law theodicy Richard Swinburne

Read about them, then come back and maybe you might be able to argue something worthwhile.

 

[KFunk]

A 19-20 year old girl who knows very little.

I dont need to show proof that god doesnt exist which as ive pointed out is impossible. They are claiming that something exist and believing in it blindly wihtout any evidence. That qualifies as completely stupid. You would consider someone who believed in pink unicorns or elves or a giant rabbit that greated the world crazy, but if its under the guise of religion its like for some reason we have to respect it. I dont have to prove my claim that it is irrational to believe in god. Im sure you and most christians would not believe in a giant rabbit which created the universe, and of course you cant prove it doesnt exist either!

A couple points:

(1) If you show that god is impossible/cannot exist then you have effectively provided a proof that god doesn't exist. I think it is quite reasonable for people to require a proof from you when you claim 'god does not exist' (which is very different, of course, from 'I believe that god does not exist' for which you need not provide proof). Sure, you don't have to provide proof that belief in god is irrational, but it would be a good idea if you want others to share your belief. However, I would suggest that you 'have to' provide proof/reasoning if you want to live up to the standards of rationality that you so readily espouse.

(2) Before you place reasoning in the minds of others shouldn't you ask theists whether they or not they do, in fact, have any evidence? I doubt very much that you could say of every theist that they "believe blindly without evidence". Certainly, there exist some who do - as there exist atheists who believe blindly - but you should avoid such generalisations, especially if they form the crux of an argument. I also realise that your claim could be read as saying 'they believe they have evidence but, in an objective sense, it is not really evidence'. Sadly, it is not exactly clear-cut whether or not something counts as good evidence. That is why I advocate asking what their evidence is, at which point you can engage in a debate about the status of the given item of information as evidence.

I think you have some good ideas (indeed, I have put forward similar ideas myself) but you also overestimate the weight some of your arguments. Saying that the other side is "without any evidence", is "completely stupid" and that you "don't have to prove" your claim is basically a 'non-starter' as far as debate is concerned.

 

[xeuyrawp]

How is that logical?

the bible is shit, therefore god does not exist!!!

It's impossilbe to prove that God does not exist. But in the absense of any evidence that he does exist, why should we believe in him and follow religious texts?

Um... How is that argument even at all relevant to what I was saying...?

I was pointing out the flaw in their argument that since the Bible is wrong, god does not exist.

I really cbf with what people think, or spending time deciding whether there's a god or not. In my opinion, the belief in god is irrelevant, unless the direct belief of it is a prerequisite to something. Eg if I thought that god might exist, and I thought that he'll make my life shit unless I believed in him, I would then worship him. Same goes for if it were a prerequisite to getting into heaven. However, that's not the case for most people here.

Rather, I'd just hope that people have thought it through and made a decision based on what they see as viable evidence.