Does God exist? (2 Viewers)

[_dhj_]

IMO, you could be less hastily in forming blanket opinions based on only your knowledge. Beyond basing claims off your own knowledge, the obvious remedy would be to seek further opinion before making these claims, thus gaining a wider held and less biased opinion. At the moment, you only know what you know.

lol how does one know more than what they know, or form opinions based not only on their own knowledge? sorry but this whole section is logically incoherent.

 

[*yooneek*]

Not "trying to lead a better life", trying to live the life they believe their God compels them too. I don't KNOW that they aren't, I just think the world would be a much different place if they were and base it off of that. I am not claiming that christians are 'bad people' or that they're not trying to be 'good people', I'm just saying by looking at the world as far as I can, that It doesn't seem that they really are trying their hardest to do what their god compells them to - so maybe they don't REALLY believe?

Chrsitians are human too! ... i think i know what you're saying though... you mean people who profess to be christians, but deny Christ by their actions?

i couldn't agree more, and it's really really sad when that happens, cause "that is what an unbelieving world simply find unbelievable" ((and yes, that is quoted from the dc talk song "what if i stumble"- in case anyone thought i was trying to take credit on their behalf))

When someone accepts Christ into their hearts, its not about "i'm going to be good for the rest of my life, and then i'll get to heaven"... it's more "I have my ticket to heaven (thru Jesus)...so now i'll show my thankfulness by striving to "be good" (act Christ-like) for the rest of my life.

its the most common mis-conception/mix-up in the eyes of the world that its being good that gets you to heaven... it'll get you nowhere- except maybe the praise of men... but what God needs from you is nothing you can give Him...nothing you can earn- which is why Christ steps in, takes your guilt, and you are forgiven.

...and Paul says "What shall we say, then? Shall we go on sinning so that grace may increase? By no means!"...God is extremely gracious, but He does know the heart, and knows if someone is false.

i don't know if that was what you were meaning NTB lol i may've gone off on a slight tangent... ...but at the same time, even if all the christians were good all the time lets say, there would still be billions of non-christians in the world... and thats not to say all non-christians are axe-murderers but i think you get my drift- all the christians doing the right thing all the time would not make the world amazing to live in- the devil still exists...and as for "maybe they don't really believe"??? well i can tell you with all my heart i truly believe, and would stand for that even unto death. Whether a person believes or not is between a person and God... He knows everyones hearts...don't worry

 

[pkc]

"If you go all the way back to the days just following creation, men lived nine hundred years or more."

[Pat Robertson, Answers to 200 of Life's most Probing Questions, Bantom Books, 1984]

 

[blue_chameleon]

Very insightful pkc. Haha.

Btw, who is Pat Robertson?

 

[blue_chameleon]

lol how does one know more than what they know, or form opinions based not only on their own knowledge? sorry but this whole section is logically incoherent.

I was meaning that in the sense that "you only know.......what you know" as in not being informed with all/or more than one angles on an issue. Does that make any more sense? Probably not. Yes, it was incoherent, but I knew what I was trying to say. Haha.

 

[davin]

I don't think thats a valid arguement for claiming people don't really believe in god, Not-That-Bright. You're trying to define what it means to believe in a god in your terms, however, what matters is what an individual says they believe God expects of them vs what they actually do. Though, I've also had Christians say that they view jesus' death as making up the difference between how they act and what being perfect would be, and that no one can actually act perfectly compared to what god wants. so there's a level of interpreation here.


on the other note, I think I remember something saying that the large number of Korean Christians had to do with the Korean war or something along those lines

 

[Not-That-Bright]

however, what matters is what an individual says they believe God expects of them vs what they actually do.

That's what I'm saying, if you believe God wants you to attend church on sunday, every sunday, why don't you? Because you don't really believe it in the way you believe if you commit a crime you will get locked up, you believe it not as a reality but more as something you would like to believe, that you think it's good to believe.

Though, I've also had Christians say that they view jesus' death as making up the difference between how they act and what being perfect would be, and that no one can actually act perfectly compared to what god wants. so there's a level of interpreation here.

Yea but when you then say to those people 'oh so I can just do whatever they want?' they'll then say something along the lines of 'no you have to try your best to follow god', that's when I say, I don't think they're even really trying - as you would - if you thought it was real.

and as for "maybe they don't really believe"??? well i can tell you with all my heart i truly believe, and would stand for that even unto death. Whether a person believes or not is between a person and God... He knows everyones hearts...don't worry

I think you really, really, really want to believe, with all your heart - but by your actions you show that you don't accept it as reality (not that I know you, or how you act... when I'm saying you, I'm meaning the people my argument is directed towards - for those whom might want to complain about me generalising too much as an easy way to dismiss what I say).

Do you believe that God wants you to go to church every sunday?

If yes, do you?

If no, then how often?

If not often, then how can you claim to believe that in reality, there is this omnipotent god out there, whom dislikes it when you don't attend church, yet you do so anyway - Even tho this may be risking your eternal salvation?

 

[pkc]

Very insightful pkc. Haha.

Btw, who is Pat Robertson?

Rev Marion Gordon "Pat" Robertson (born March 22, 1930) is an influential religious broadcaster from the United States. He is the founder of numerous organizations and corporations, including the American Center for Law and Justice (ACLJ), Christian Broadcasting Network (CBN), the Christian Coalition, Flying Hospital, International Family Entertainment, Operation Blessing International Relief and Development Corporation, and Regent University. He is the host of The 700 Club, a Christian TV program which airs on many channels in the United States and on CBN affiliates worldwide.

Robertson is a partisan of the Republican Party and campaigned to become the party's candidate in the 1988 presidential election. As a result of his seeking political office, he no longer serves in an official role for any church. However, many U.S. Christian churches do not have a national leader that represents or speaks for them, a contributing factor to Robertson's ability to claim a position as a leading Christian voice.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pat_Robertson

 

[robo-andie]

I am aware that I am not perfect, but lets think about it. Blue_Chameleon just called me an idiot, now since he/she is not perfect, shouldn't he/she not call me an idiot?

The intellectual chest huffing was started by he. If someone claims you're an idiot I believe it's fair to point out their own faults and in doing so you are not claiming you are any better than them, just trying to get them off their high-horse.

Agreed, and my apologies.


The previous posts have cleared some things up, I think I can see where you are coming from, perhaps it just needed a little more explaining other than "You don't really believe".

If not often, then how can you claim to believe that in reality, there is this omnipotent god out there, whom dislikes it when you don't attend church, yet you do so anyway - Even tho this may be risking your eternal salvation?

As it was explained to me in another thread, the idea of Church is to return Gods love and share your love for God with others. The way they explained it was "How would you like a friend who only spoke to you when they were upset, or something was wrong." So I don't think Church is generally about showing you truely believe in God, it's more showing that you understand your relationship with him works both ways. I would define truely believing in God as being unable to be convinced otherwise, an unwavering devotion to the belief in his existance and atleast an attempt to act (as yoonek said) Christ-like.
That however, is possibly a very general and superficial view.

 

[*yooneek*]

That's what I'm saying, if you believe God wants you to attend church on sunday, every sunday, why don't you? Because you don't really believe it in the way you believe if you commit a crime you will get locked up, you believe it not as a reality but more as something you would like to believe, that you think it's good to believe.



Yea but when you then say to those people 'oh so I can just do whatever they want?' they'll then say something along the lines of 'no you have to try your best to follow god', that's when I say, I don't think they're even really trying - as you would - if you thought it was real.



I think you really, really, really want to believe, with all your heart - but by your actions you show that you don't accept it as reality (not that I know you, or how you act... when I'm saying you, I'm meaning the people my argument is directed towards - for those whom might want to complain about me generalising too much as an easy way to dismiss what I say).

Do you believe that God wants you to go to church every sunday?

If yes, do you?

If no, then how often?

If not often, then how can you claim to believe that in reality, there is this omnipotent god out there, whom dislikes it when you don't attend church, yet you do so anyway - Even tho this may be risking your eternal salvation?

actually... by human nature... i really really really didn't want to believe... every single person on Earth is in that boat... cause we are all born into sin and therefore want nothing to do with God... its only cause of what God has done to my heart...
and yes, i believe God wants me to go to church every Sunday, i go twice (its only on twice!)... not out of obligation or if i didnt then i wouldn't get to heaven... its for my own benefit- i get to learn so much amazing/deep stuff and get to meet with Gods people and be encouraged ready for another week of life
not going to church does not put ur eternal salvation at risk...but not going to church when you could, and just sitting at home watching tv or sleeping in or whatever...you have to wonder where that persons priorities are- cause surely if God is #1 in your life then you would want to fellowship with His people--- but i know heaps of people how out-right refuse to go to church because they want to prove you don't have to go to church to be a christian... which is a bit sad...
lol and i understand that you're not directing it at me personally... i completely understand... and maybe one day we will meet who knows!

 

[davin]

Because you don't really believe it in the way you believe if you commit a crime you will get locked up,

i dunno, i mean, there are laws i break plenty because i figure they're minor laws i don't have to worry about. example, i speed a little. figure its not a big deal. different rules have different severities attached to them

 

[Not-That-Bright]

Christian motto "all sin is equal".

Also, even if you didn't care much because they're minor laws, if you say shoplifted a chocolate or something, you'd at least be worried about being caught. Christians staying home on sunday don't seem worried.

 

[mr EaZy]

im n0t a christian but
i would disagree: it only works if ur religious

so if ur not religious and dont go to church - why would you care?

because if your not religious: theres an implied presumption that you wouldnt care about the bigger sins like lying, fornication, slander, and you know the 7 deadly ones.... these 'sins' arent regulated by law

so our sense of morality and ethics is builty up on personal intuition/upbringing and the laws are a super structure that regulate what is serious and the not so obvious ones

to the contrary of what you said: religion makes you conscious of the smallest of sins- because just as pebbles can build up into a mound of some size so do sins.

the way i see it is this: its all about compromise- a thing that relates to character dimunition

if i do something bad and then try to correct others- who am i to correct others when im in a pickle myself? so my sense of high ethical standards has been degraded by the knowledge of the fact that i myself am not perfect. no one i know will hold me to account for it - but i know i did it. so my position is compromised- we learnt this in business ethics.

the true religion aims to perfect the actions of its followers and raises the standard of ethics so as to aim to protect the follower from potential compromise position. it is the follower who abuses that standard and puts him/herself in the compromise position.

note that im not a scholar of my faith and this is something that popped into my mind even though some of my ideas have come from many sources and they can be applied to all people.

 

[transcendent]

so you're saying that those without a religion are not and can not be aware of the sins they are committing? one person's sin is another person's salvation, that's my motto.

 

[robo-andie]

one person's sin is another person's salvation, that's my motto.

So considering at the moment of your birth you are considered to have already sinned, then your birth is another’s salvation? - I think I like it.

Did you know: in Canada, SIN stands for Social Insurance Number, everyone in Canada carries SIN with them everyday then.

 

[liger]

i think it all comes down to faith. whether or not ur going to let urself believe.

 

[transcendent]

some find it hard to trust people let alone trust something like an invisible all powerful god that doesn't really do anything in their opinion.

 

[davin]

i think it all comes down to faith. whether or not ur going to let urself believe.

i don't think there is a 'let' involved, per se
i mean, unless i had something very substantial, i'm fairly sure i CAN'T believe

 

[Captain Gh3y]

That's what I'm saying, if you believe God wants you to attend church on sunday, every sunday, why don't you? Because you don't really believe it in the way you believe if you commit a crime you will get locked up, you believe it not as a reality but more as something you would like to believe, that you think it's good to believe.

That's the problem with this thread, it consists of religious people arguing against what they think non-religious people think, and then non-religious people arguing against what they think religious people think.

Do you believe that God wants you to go to church every sunday?

No.

I think you really, really, really want to believe, with all your heart - but by your actions you show that you don't accept it as reality (not that I know you, or how you act... when I'm saying you, I'm meaning the people my argument is directed towards - for those whom might want to complain about me generalising too much as an easy way to dismiss what I say).

How exactly do you expect people to act? Because it seems to be based on what you think they should do. Anyway, since we agree you don't know most people or what their actions are then you must be using some sort of psychic power here. Which is fairly incredible, most psychics use really vague words, but you have come out and claimed to know the thoughts and convictions of millions of people. You should get that $1,000,000 prize yourself.

 

[Not-That-Bright]

That's the problem with this thread, it consists of religious people arguing against what they think non-religious people think, and then non-religious people arguing against what they think religious people think.

Actually I don't see that much of it. In fact I don't argue against what religious people think so much as the non-possibility of god, this is the first time I or anyone else imo has brought up anything that makes some assumptions about the inner workings of what religious people think.

No.

Fine, as far as I can tell, you're one of these people that has a view of God that you de-attach from basically any attribute (other than existing) in an argument so that whatever argued does not affect you. If you want to have such a view on the existance of God, why bother? If your God is essentially nothing but some sort of cosmic force that began the universe, than imo you're using the commonplace definition of a God very liberally.

How exactly do you expect people to act? Because it seems to be based on what you think they should do.

Of course it is based on what I think they (would) do if they believed in God, compared with what I see now - That's all I have to work off in making such a judgement. If you want to disagree with that, I don't think it suffices to simply say "you don't know everything about people" - are you trying to claim beyond their hethen ways when they're at home alone they're constantly praising God and begging forgiveness?

Which is fairly incredible, most psychics use really vague words, but you have come out and claimed to know the thoughts and convictions of millions of people.

It's like me saying "most people value life" - Do you consider that to be a psychic statement?

Imo this is such a weak argument to attack me on I don't know why you bother. So because I can't know the thoughts and actions definitively of millions of people, I can't make any sort of judgement based upon what I do currently know? I'm sorry but that's not feasible - I've said "Well I think people whom believe in God would be acting differently, Christians would be attending church on sunday, muslims would not dare not fast properly, etc" - most peoples vision of God is an interventionist, moralist God whom has set down rules for people to follow... now shouldn't this have some visible impact on peoples lives?

Show me it and stop this silly line of argument.