Do you view the US as a foundationally "Christian" nation? (1 Viewer)

[Cookie182]

I've been reading up on US history as of late, and it does appear that many of the 'founding fathers' (not pilgrims) were at the very least strong skeptics, far more skeptical ironically 232 yrs ago then the "christian right" today. Jefferson, a deist and Franklin most notably an atheist are classic examples.

Would you identify the US as having a Christian foundation, which US politics today loves to so claim? I know this does not have direct impacts on us as Australians, but when George Bush outlined that invading Iraq was God's plan for "his" people etc and then with nutjob republicans like Palin calling out to God, it is certainly an interesting discussion.

In what light would you view Australia? Obviously it is fair to say that the colonists would have been predominately Christian, but I for one do not feel that we have any sense of a national, christian identity.

This argument between Christopher Hitchens and Ken Blackwell is nothing short of epic IMO. Hitchens destroys Blackwell, who only stands to highlight the very face of ignorance

Don't participate if you don't watch this video, I mainly posted in awe of Hitchens rhetoric/

YouTube - Hardball: Christopher Hitchens vs Ken Blackwell on the US Being a Christian Nation

 

[loller]

yes,

only ~60% believe in evolution

Edit: holy shit my eyes must be fucked. i read it as fundamentally not foundationally

 

[Cookie182]

yes,

only ~60% believe in evolution

Oh without doubt, the majority of the population today are indoctrinated to buggery. It is extremely sad when people even discuss "believing" in rational, proven science as though you have this probabilistic choice: that it’s either right or wrong. That is the true definition of ignorance and spits in the face of learning and growth.

But my question focuses on the foundationalists. From the reading of history I've been doing, the so loved founding fathers who inspired the constitution very much would have embraced rational science such as evolution had it been known at the time. It appears that ironically, the US was founded strongly on the need to escape the church, yet it has bred into becoming a fundamentally stupid nation.

 

[Cookie182]

yes,

only ~60% believe in evolution

Edit: holy shit my eyes must be fucked. i read it as fundamentally not foundationally

That's kool, it is getting late.

I'm not quite sure if "foundationally" is good English haha

 

[Freedom_]

Treaty of Tripoli signed at Tripoli on November 4, 1796

Article 11 reads:

Art. 11. As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion; as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquility, of Mussulmen; and, as the said States never entered into any war, or act of hostility against any Mahometan nation, it is declared by the parties, that no pretext arising from religious opinions, shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries.

 

[Tully B.]

My knowledge of American history isn't all that spiffy, but I get the idea that the founding fathers tried to put a lot of emphasis on the secular nature of the foundational Government. Since then, it seems to have gone up and down from that point, but never quite reached true secularism.

 

[Iron]

The genious of the founders was their ability to create a system which effectively checks power and keeps it fairly honest. They were certainly convervative, perhaps anti-democratic, but hardly very Christian. America is all about money and the quickest way to make it.

Having said that, when people talk about the US founders being Christian, theyre usually referring to the very first arrivals who were devout Christians of many flavours, fleeing persecution in Europe

 

[dieburndie]

I agree, the US was founded as a secular nation, as Hitchens argues very well in that video.

I think that it's a very important issue to take into account when considering the recent political climate in the US. So often the Religious right will claim that their political opponents ("secular progressives", "liberals", athiests/agnostics etc) are attempting to hijack what is fundamentally a christian nation. When this is framed differently, and it is recognised that it is religion that has caused the US to stray so far from it's constitutional roots, it becomes clear why religious forces having the political power they do now is such a problem.

The US Constitution and the nation the founding fathers envisioned has been pissed all over in terms of what they originally intended. I think it's an excellent example of why the church should operate entirely seperately from any branches of politics. One nation under god cares nothing for individual liberty.

 

[loquasagacious]

The genious of the founders was their ability to create a system which effectively checks power and keeps it fairly honest. They were certainly convervative, perhaps anti-democratic, but hardly very Christian. America is all about money and the quickest way to make it.

Having said that, when people talk about the US founders being Christian, theyre usually referring to the very first arrivals who were devout Christians of many flavours, fleeing persecution in Europe

Disagree about the money, but otherwise spot on.

 

[A High Way Man]

Treaty of Tripoli signed at Tripoli on November 4, 1796

Article 11 reads:

Art. 11. As the Government of the United States of America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion; as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquility, of Mussulmen; and, as the said States never entered into any war, or act of hostility against any Mahometan nation, it is declared by the parties, that no pretext arising from religious opinions, shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries.

i think that was just to appease the barbary pirates

context mate

one nation under god.

 

[Iron]

One nation under god cares nothing for individual liberty.

Nah, the freedom fits in nicely with the fleeing religious persecution. One of the unique things about America is the generally harmonious relations its religions have had with eachother. American society accepts a vast, sometimes crazy, range of Christian religions. I personally view this as somewhat unfortunate. There was a brief period after WW2 where many held their breath in the hope than New York would assume the role of the new Constantinople, as Rome was exhausted by the threatening and barbaric east. But the reality is that they sold their soul very early on.

I dont want to watch the Hitchens thing because he is satan incarnate, but looking at the framers of the constitution seems fairly irrelevant. They agreed early on, and quite sensibly, that religion should be basically irrelevant to the mechanics of the system of government they were drawing up. This isnt to say that they or other scurvy colonists werent particularly religious. The Church today even states that they themselves cannot and must not govern. The Church role is the moral instruction of individuals of all times and places in Truth.

 

[loquasagacious]

Nah, the freedom fits in nicely with the fleeing religious persecution. One of the unique things about America is the generally harmonious relations its religions have had with eachother. American society accepts a vast, sometimes crazy, range of Christian religions. I personally view this as somewhat unfortunate. There was a brief period after WW2 where many held their breath in the hope than New York would assume the role of the new Constantinople, as Rome was exhausted by the threatening and barbaric east. But the reality is that they sold their soul very early on.

I dont want to watch the Hitchens thing because he is satan incarnate, but looking at the framers of the constitution seems fairly irrelevant. They agreed early on, and quite sensibly, that religion should be basically irrelevant to the mechanics of the system of government they were drawing up. This isnt to say that they or other scurvy colonists werent particularly religious. The Church today even states that they themselves cannot and must not govern. The Church role is the moral instruction of individuals of all times and places in Truth.

Well The Church may say that but other Christian denominations are rather less bashful.... endorsing presidential candidates, preaching about the Iraq invasion as a crusade against Satan, pushing creationism in schools, etc etc

 

[Cookie182]

Nah, the freedom fits in nicely with the fleeing religious persecution. One of the unique things about America is the generally harmonious relations its religions have had with eachother. American society accepts a vast, sometimes crazy, range of Christian religions. I personally view this as somewhat unfortunate. There was a brief period after WW2 where many held their breath in the hope than New York would assume the role of the new Constantinople, as Rome was exhausted by the threatening and barbaric east. But the reality is that they sold their soul very early on.

I dont want to watch the Hitchens thing because he is satan incarnate, but looking at the framers of the constitution seems fairly irrelevant. They agreed early on, and quite sensibly, that religion should be basically irrelevant to the mechanics of the system of government they were drawing up. This isnt to say that they or other scurvy colonists werent particularly religious. The Church today even states that they themselves cannot and must not govern. The Church role is the moral instruction of individuals of all times and places in Truth.

Get the fuck out! Hitchens is a hyper-intellect, a triumph of reason and l very much idolise his heavy, liqueur-influenced rhetoric and his championed battle against scandalous dogma. No Catholic figure comes near Hitchens in the name of Truth! (perhaps Fr George Coyne...)

Although tbh I’m not very offended, given Satan does not exist.

 

[Iron]

 

[jules.09]

I've been reading up on US history as of late, and it does appear that many of the 'founding fathers' (not pilgrims) were at the very least strong skeptics, far more skeptical ironically 232 yrs ago then the "christian right" today. Jefferson, a deist and Franklin most notably an atheist are classic examples.

Would you identify the US as having a Christian foundation, which US politics today loves to so claim? I know this does not have direct impacts on us as Australians, but when George Bush outlined that invading Iraq was God's plan for "his" people etc and then with nutjob republicans like Palin calling out to God, it is certainly an interesting discussion.

In what light would you view Australia? Obviously it is fair to say that the colonists would have been predominately Christian, but I for one do not feel that we have any sense of a national, christian identity.

This argument between Christopher Hitchens and Ken Blackwell is nothing short of epic IMO. Hitchens destroys Blackwell, who only stands to highlight the very face of ignorance

Don't participate if you don't watch this video, I mainly posted in awe of Hitchens rhetoric/

YouTube - Hardball: Christopher Hitchens vs Ken Blackwell on the US Being a Christian Nation

As mentioned above, I was under the impression the founders of America, were intent in creating a secular nation. The current religious/political climates says otherwise; it seems to be Christian-conservative.

As for Australia, Rudd is quite a conservative Christian himself. However, I find the atmosphere in Australia to be more relaxed, probably because we aren't a superpower, haha. Students are able to freely learn and acknowledge the theory of evolution and don't bother with intelligent design, and every time there occurs a national mishap, we don't have cries about God's injustice by the thousands.