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Do you fear death? (2 Viewers)

Enteebee

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"I'm not afraid. I'm not afraid. I'm not afraid. I'm not afraid. I'm not afraid." Tbh I see it almost as a mantra... So much in our society is done to shield us from having to face our own mortality. How often do westerners see dead bodies? How quickly do we move to cover up the sight of the dead when they're around, what is that to do if not shield us from our fear? What is this belief in the afterlife all about?
 
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Cookie182

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I think it needs to be rephrased as "Do you fear dying without having had a good root?" When i was younger dying a virgin scared me horribly. Now thats over and done with, im indifferent.
 

scarybunny

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There are plenty of things I still want to do. Perhaps it's not death that scares me but the idea of not having lived yet.
 

Slidey

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Enteebee said:
You do realise... the things that I'm bringing up are brought up by philosophers, sociologists etc right? It's not like this is entirely my own little crusade. There's an argument to be had whether you believe there is or not.
It's just funny that you'd made you're mind up that we all must fear death before you even made this thread. You're not trying to discover the truth, you're trying to convince everyone else of what you believe.

Now that is more like a mantra.

But why? Why is it so important that everybody else fears death like you do?
 

Enteebee

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Slidey said:
It's just funny that you'd made you're mind up that we all must fear death before you even made this thread. You're not trying to discover the truth, you're trying to convince everyone else of what you believe.

Now that is more like a mantra.

But why? Why is it so important that everybody else fears death like you do?
How do you know I've made up my mind? I've no more exhibited that I have made up mine than that you have yours, I am putting forward what I believe to perhaps be the case and you are putting forward your own ideas. I at least seem to desire a continued debate on the topic, you just want to say "Ignorant fool. You're wrong."
But why? Why is it so important that everybody else fears death like you do?
I don't particularly care whether people do, I just believe that it appears to be the truth and I'm putting forward my reasons... I also don't really believe 'everyone' does but from what people in this thread have said they seem to skirt around it fairly close so I feel there's a bit of a language game happening.
 
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Slidey

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NTB, I can tell the difference between when people are pushing their opinion, and actually discussing a possibility. For the past, what 40-50 posts on this issue in the God thread and here, you've consistently responded in the negative to the posts which suggest that not fearing death is possible. That's pushing an opinion.

I'm happy to accept that you fear death. You're not happy to accept that we don't fear death. To me that would make you the one implying "Ignorant fool, You're wrong.". You can hardly say we're "skirting the issue" when you consistently respond to the effect of "you're wrong, because..." whenever we try to explain to you how we, emotionally and rationally, simply don't have a fear of death.

Picture somebody asking you if you're afraid of clowns, and then when you say you're not, they spend the rest of the day trying to explain to you how you actually are afraid of clowns, you just don't know it.
 

ronnknee

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Exphate said:
Death is inevitable. Why fear it?
On the contrary, we fear death BECAUSE it is inevitable. If i was immortal, death wouldnt be inevitable so i wouldnt fear it.
 

Iron

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Enteebee said:
True, tbh I was just surprised it was coming from Iron, who is pretty much the biggest wankfest this forum has.

.
All the better to see you with!
...
?

My gut tells me that you'd squeal like most people, but I dont see much prospect of truth or honesty on the matter
 

Enteebee

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NTB, I can tell the difference between when people are pushing their opinion, and actually discussing a possibility. For the past, what 40-50 posts on this issue in the God thread and here, you've consistently responded in the negative to the posts which suggest that not fearing death is possible. That's pushing an opinion.
I discuss a lot of things at serious length, if you think it's a matter of me 'pushing my opinion' instead of discussing issues I'm interested in good for you, that's a subjective judgement you can make if you so please. However it's often more just that particularly contraversial ideas or those which people seem to shrug off rather easily but which I believe have merit to them I will usually take up the cause of, perhaps 'pushing' it further than I even think its merits warrant in my own mind.

I'm happy to accept that you fear death. You're not happy to accept that we don't fear death. To me that would make you the one implying "Ignorant fool, You're wrong.".
In a sense obviously I do believe you're wrong but at the same time you feel the same if you're going to disagree with me. I don't think you're an ignorant fool though.

You can hardly say we're "skirting the issue" when you consistently respond to the effect of "you're wrong, because..." whenever we try to explain to you how we, emotionally and rationally, simply don't have a fear of death.
I do think you are answering the questions honestly it's just that the responses hint to me that there is perhaps more similarity in our views than our disagreement may make it appear.

Picture somebody asking you if you're afraid of clowns, and then when you say you're not, they spend the rest of the day trying to explain to you how you actually are afraid of clowns, you just don't know it.
I imagine that it would be frustrating but for the most part I don't think that has near as much merit as a near-universal fear of death does, do you? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terror_management_theory
 
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Enteebee

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Iron said:
All the better to see you with!
...
?

My gut tells me that you'd squeal like most people, but I dont see much prospect of truth or honesty on the matter
squeel?
 

Slidey

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Fair enough NTB. As to this:

I imagine that it would be frustrating but for the most part I don't think that has near as much merit as a near-universal fear of death does, do you?
It has merit because my fear of clowns is about equal to my fear of death. Perhaps that gives you a way of gauging my sincerity on the issue. (And yes I find clowns disturbing, but I don't fear them.)

Your sticking point here seems to be that you feel it is illogical to fear death as little as you fear clowns, yes? Or perhaps it is that you feel that, at some level, I must have some fear of clowns, however minute, thus it could be 'true' to say I fear clowns?

I have been known to, at times, undertake activities which have a certain higher than average risk of mortal injury, knowing full-well such a risk exists.
 

Enteebee

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It has merit because my fear of clowns is about equal to my fear of death. Perhaps that gives you a way of gauging my sincerity on the issue. (And yes I find clowns disturbing, but I don't fear them.)
Well according to you your fear of clowns is equal to your fear of death but I'd probably reject that, people seem quite capable of denying their fear of death even to themselves... my attempts at arguing with people about this have been somewhat an attempt to awaken an acknowledgement of this fear though I guess it's been unsuccessful. I mean the point is that my basis for thinking there may be a near-universal fear of death does not come just from... what people say they fear and how much they fear it.

Your sticking point here seems to be that you feel it is illogical to fear death as little as you fear clowns, yes? Or perhaps it is that you feel that, at some level, I must have some fear of clowns, however minute, thus it could be 'true' to say I fear clowns?
It's not really 'logical' as I see these things as pre-rational... It's like saying "Your sticking point seems to be that it's illogical to be sexually attracted to men as much as women". I don't believe there is some hidden fear of clowns inside of all of us and there appears to be no reason to imagine there would be. Human society hasn't been structured around eliminating fear of clowns or anything, however it does appear (according to some) to be structured around avoiding situations where you are faced with the knowledge of your own mortality.

Would you accept that it's likely there are many things which influence who we are, what we do that we do not have a conscious, active appreciation of?
 
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Enteebee

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http://web.uccs.edu/ur/communique/ezine/features/04_10_02F2.htm said:
You're not afraid of dying, you say.

You hate helmets, love glade-skiing at high speeds, believe in the afterlife, plan to swim with the sharks, and have one of those "No Fear" stickers plastered on the bumper of your mud-splattered ATV.

Tom Pyszczynski, a CU-Colorado Springs professor of psychology, has got news for you.

You're repressing, he says.

And apparently an increasing number of scholars, book editors and journalists agree.

Pyszczynski's theory, dubbed "terror management," has been steadily earning respect over the past 15 years in academic circles. But since Sept. 11 he and two colleagues who helped coin the expression and pioneer the research have been catapulted into the national limelight.

According to Pyszczynski and his two longtime friends- psychology professors Sheldon Solomon from Skidmore College and Jeff Greenberg from the University of Arizona, Tucson- we all dread death. Most importantly, this primal fear may be a major cause of racial and religious prejudices.

Pyszczynski explains terror management theory like this: Most living things have an innate propensity to stay alive. Humans share that drive but are nevertheless the only creatures on the planet saddled with the knowledge that they will die.

"What an appalling affront to share the intense desire for continued existence with all living things but be smart enough to recognize the ultimate futility of this most basic biological imperative," said Pyszczynski. "We think that clash creates the potential for terror."

To buffer this dread, humans construct a shield- a belief system to explain how the world works. Living up to the values of our belief system bolsters our self-esteem. Hence, we manage the terror through a complex psychological defense comprised of faith, politics, and social norms that makes us feel safe when we live up to its standards.

With this in mind, Pyszczynski and his two colleagues constructed an elaborate series of tests to see how people would respond when reminded of death. Study after study during the past 15 years has corroborated the link between fear of death and thinking negatively of other cultures, races, and people whose points of view contradict our own.

The test results sent ripples through the psychological community.

"I think the theory has had a big impact, and was controversial, because it delved into issues that no one else in experimental psychology was thinking about," said Pyszczynski.

Terror management theory yokes together existential psychology, philosophy, psychoanalysis and evolutionary thinking in ways that had never before been empirically tested. It was so unheard of that in 1987, when the trio published their first findings, one critic pronounced: "I'm absolutely certain this article will be of no interest to any psychologist, living or dead."

Some would call that a terrifying review. Not Pyszczynski, who still laughs about it today.

"It was inspiring," he said.

Pyszczynski has reason to smile. He's now sought-after as a speaker and is soon to have a book on the shelves at major bookstores. Commissioned by the American Psychological Association almost immediately after the World Trade Center bombings, the book, co-authored with Solomon and Greenberg is entitled "In the Wake of 9/11 - The Psychology of Terror." Pyszczynski has also been quoted in Glamour magazine, GQ, Playboy, the National Journal, the Los Angeles Times, Psychology Today, and the New York Times.

There is more to Pyszczynski's life, however, than terror.

A popular professor and a devoted dad to his 13-year-old daughter, he seems to have struck a balance in life. With a mane of flowing silver hair and a Brian Wilson poster on his office wall, it's not hard to imagine Pyszczynski at play. He is the bass guitarist of a garage band that jams a blend of reggae, jazz and African rhythm every Tuesday night. And he's a fearless experimenter in his Manitou Springs kitchen, currently obsessed with modern Japanese and Mediterranean cuisine.

It was in this spirit 20 years ago that Pyszczynski and his two close friends from graduate school- Greenberg and Solomon- met up in New Orleans for a psychology conference in the early 1980s. Sitting on the banks of the Mississippi River with a six-pack of beer, the conversation roamed from Cajun cooking to the space shuttle Challenger they saw flying overhead, piggybacked on a 747 en route to Cape Canaveral, to existential philosophy.

"I remember Sheldon had been reading books by Ernest Becker, and he'd gotten Jeff to read them and they wanted me to read one," he recalls. "So they said let's go to a bookstore and get Tom a copy."

It became a turning point for Pyszczynski.

Becker, a cultural anthropologist, interdisciplinary scientific thinker, and 1974 Pulitzer Prize winner for his book, "Denial of Death," believed that humans would be paralyzed by terror if they were constantly aware of their mortality. Consequently, Becker argued, cultural belief systems evolved to explain the nature of reality and to manage the terror.

The trio took Becker's premises of a socially constructed reality a step further, to see how far people would go to preserve their constructs.

To test this, they came up with elaborate experiments. One study involved polling two sets of people; one group on a street corner and the other as they walked past a funeral home (a subtle reminder of death). Both were quizzed about the value of charity- an inarguable virtue in our society. Those nearest the funeral home ranked the merits of charity much higher than the others. The results continued to stack up- even in Europe, Israel, Asia, and among Aborigines in the Outback of Australia. When German test participants were reminded of death they sat farther away from the Turkish participants. Similarly, the Dutch, when exposed to thoughts of death, predicted they'd quash the Germans in a soccer match the next week even though the odds were stacked against the Dutch. Those without the death prompt predicted they'd lose or tie.

Despite the tests, who, after all, really believes that belittling others might save our bacon? Aren't we more rational than that?

Not really, says Pyszczynski.

The rational mind knows that it's abominable to condemn others for an imaginary shot at immortality. But thoughts of death, Pyszczynski said, don't reside in the rational mind. If they did, we'd be reduced to "twitching blobs of biological protoplasm," unable to perform even the simplest of tasks in life- from merging onto the expressway to keeping an appointment with the doctor who wants to discuss a suspicious looking shadow on your brain scan.

Hence, we repress in order to function.

"A rational person would realize the futility of condemning someone different as a means of reducing concerns about mortality," Pyszczynski wrote in a recent academic journal.

But terror, of course, is not a rational act. And these are not rational times.

Pyszczynski says that the recent surge of American jingoism is classic terror management. On the flip side, so too are calls for peace from those who value a passive response to the World Trade Center attacks.

Both responses demonstrate how terror can be a major civilizing force, said Pyszczynski.

"It compels us to live up to cultural standards of value; most of which are good for us," he said. "It makes us want to make sense out of life, be a good person and be loved by others- all good things.

"For example, although many studies have shown that reminders of death often lead to increased bigotry and closed-mindedness, if people are first reminded that they value tolerance- the view that everyone has a right to their own opinions and values- then reminders of death increase tolerance.

"Terror," said Pyszczynski, "leads us to work harder at living up to the things we value in life."

Another upside of terror is the career-boost its given Pyszczynski, Greenberg and Solomon.

Today, much like every respectable English Department has a resident medievalist or modernist, almost every major social psychology school has a terror management theorist, according to Bob Durham, chair, Psychology Department.
.
 

ronnknee

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That big post was no surprise. Fear makes us work harder. No fear for the HSC= laziness in the extreme. But fear is hard to conrtol.
 

Ennaybur

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michael1990 said:
Sorry, but who is the girl named in your signature?

^^^
katie tully. RIP :(
you might have known her as 'borat'


with reference to this thread: I agree with ntb. I can't even fathom how you atheists (particularly) aren't afraid of death. coz it scares the hell out of me. and the end is all i can see. coz it scares the hell out of me

And I know the moment's near
And there's nothing you can do
Look through a faithless eye
Are you afraid to die?
 
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prichardson

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i-love-maynard said:
I fear death. Not so much the process of dying, but what comes later. That's why I wish sometimes I was religious, it would be good to have that faith and to believe that there's a heaven. But I just picture there being nothing and it scares me.
That's silly! The concept of nothingness relies of there being absolutely no point of reference or context. Merely by implying that in death you would experience nothing there is a frame of reference. A real absence of anything would be... nothing. Beyond thought, action, emotion. Just- nothing. How can you fear an absence when it is impossible to grasp such a thing for any being?Anyway... beyond that, I haven't thought enough about death [at least not in terms of me myself being the thing involved in the act of death] enough to post my thoughts on it very well, but maybe I'll go off and do that sometime soon. And also, I love the Epicurus quote you posted in your intro Enteebee... quite nice. Anyway, you've given me something to mull over at some point so kudos to you.

KFunk said:
Also, a problem in this debate is the vagueness of the concept 'death'. E.g. are we best to define it in terms of the absence of experience, or in terms of loss (of loved ones/things) or in terms of non-being etc...?



Chadd, if you want a good overview of death anxiety issues I would recommend part one of Irvin Yalom's Existential Psychotherapy entitled Death.



While fear of death is common, I don't think that it is inevitable. It is simple enough to note that what some fear others don't, referring here to an arbirtrary object of fear, and that there are pathological cases, resulting from brain damage, where fear/anxiety seem almost to be erased from a person's experience. The first point implies that most fears within our social catalogue are not shared by all people and are thus not necesary. Similarly, the pathological cases seem to show that even without any fears rationality, agency, and so forth, may remain. It is not a big leap to suppose that this contingency may extend also to the fear/anxiety of death.



It is interesting seeing the way death anxiety is approached in different traditions. Epicurus, Lucretius, and the Stoics all seem to argue for the irrationality of the fear of death, presumably hoping that reasoned thought can overcome death anxiety and produce a more pleasurable life. Buddhism, to generalise, seems to accept the impermanence of things as a central truth and so attempts are made by some teachers to encourage a general acceptance that all that one cherishes in the world will eventually fade into oblivion (things fall apart). A point of interest - the aforementioned Greeks and Romans seemed to think that rejection of the fear of death leads to a better life. However, there is a body of literature (described by Yalom in the text mentioned above) showing that life is often invigorated following a near death experience. Too much death anxiety is disabling, but the right amount can help one, it would seem, to treasure the now and live a richer life.


I find that concept applies to all things, you've no doubt heard of something along the lines of "how can there be peace without war?" and that type of thing. It's tied in to the ying-yang ideology isn't it?

ronnknee said:
You really all probably don't fear death now but only because it isn't near. Like you're not afraid of the Taliban because it wouldn't be hear in Australia. But if you knew you were going to die painlessly in one hour. Hell, all of us would be scared, though some more than others, though maybe the sucidal wouldn't feel any fear at all.

I reckon a belief in the afterlife does help lessen the fear, but most people have doubts so it wouldn't help for them.

Also, just because you can't avoid something, I don't find it odd many people have subconscious thought about it. It will end our lives, why wouldn't we think about it sometimes? It changes our lives and those around us.
If the knowledge of your death was a finite and irreversable or delayable thing I don't think many people would be scared. Once removed from hope there is no fear because there is really nothing to be accomplished. Maybe a sadness about what you are going to miss, but not a fear of the death itself.

Ennaybur said:
katie tully. RIP

you might have known her as 'borat'

with reference to this thread: I agree with ntb. I can't even fathom how you atheists (particularly) aren't afraid of death. coz it scares the hell out of me. and the end is all i can see. coz it scares the hell out of me

And I know the moment's near
And there's nothing you can do
Look through a faithless eye
Are you afraid to die?
I should imagine that having something as tourmenting as hell scared out of you would be quite a refreshing and positive experience
:eek:

ronnknee said:
I would fear being shot because I fear death which the shot to my head would cause. if you fear death, why wouldn't you fear the cause of it?
If you fear being eaten by a shark, why wouldn't you be scared of the shark itself?
Because the shark won't neccassarily deliver death...

ronnknee said:
But the reason for feeling scared of the gun is because its associated with death. And with the shark you'll be thinkin how to get away from it because you have a chance of dying.
NO! You think about getting away because you have a chance of living!

ronnknee said:
On the contrary, we fear death BECAUSE it is inevitable. If i was immortal, death wouldnt be inevitable so i wouldnt fear it.
...eh?? People have quested for immortality for ages [no.1 solution: religion! yippee! immortality for the masses!]. If you're immortal life would be inevitable. As mortals, though, we have the hope that we can change things, and so struggle to live longer... as long as possible - forever.

If we fear death it's because we had hoped that we had escaped it, at least temporarily.

Once again, I'd say that's more just dissappointment.





*Done* :D
 
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ahnaf.choco

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i dont fear death. i fear what lay ahead of death in a religious context.
there are many painless ways of dying if one is looking forward to commit suicide, but in my religion (Islam), hell is guaranteed for those who kill themselves. even for those who die a natural death...theres a big trial for them ahead....even if seen from a christian's point of view so yea.
 

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