Dance Champ Teen Found Dead Before Exam (1 Viewer)

[ash7614]

i think you should go **** yourself and learn to shut your mouth about something you clearly know nothing about..

you say you don't know what it's like to feel depressed??
well good for you.. not everyone has that luxury..

i'm not justifying suicide but it was a decision that lily made (no matter how much it killed me to lose her) and it's certainly not your place to pass judgement..

there are never any logical reasons why people commit suicide..
it's a psycological problem..

yes people cope with with many different issues everyday and this whole chemical balance thing is a crock of sh*t but every single person as a different threshold..
no one knows why lily did what she did..
you have no idea what was going through her head..
you couldn't possibly imagine.. no one could.. even if she told them..
there's no escape from your own mind and lily's mind was clearly no longer a place she wanted to be prisonor of..

and yes you're correct in the fact that she may not have been depressed.. there are many other diagnosis' like skitzophrenia etc.. but there would definately have to be something not right in your head to want to kill youself..


look i agree in the fact that there is never a good enough reason to kill yourself but in the mind of someone who is suicidal (which you couldn't possibly understand because you have never been) things are a little different..

take a step back and consider just for one moment that she obviously was miserable enough to want to end her own life..
you must know what it's like to be sad.. well imagine being so sad to the point that you dont want to deal with it anymore.. that it's been going on for so long that you feel death is your only option..

i'm not saying death is the only option but just TRY and put it into perspective for someone else's not so stubbon point of view..

lily was a beautiful soul.. but she clearly had problems so deep that no one could have ever forseen..
she never showed signs of being depressed.. never ever being upset about anything.. to me thats not normal.. it's not normal to never be upset..


you don't have to be sympathetic..
and no one has to give you any of these 'logical' answers you ask for..
there is nothing logical about what happened..

 

[ash7614]

wuddie, I know its hard to wrap your head around the idea of the inability to be assertive and optimistic. Its hard to understand how one could fall into the idea of suicide. I too occasionally feel indifferent and sometimes angry with people who consider, attempt or commit suicide. Although I don't rule out the fact that whatever is going on in their head is out of their control, particular if no one on the outside takes notice, or cares.

You're asking why Elizabeth specifically killed herself. No one is going to be able to answer that, because we don't know her life or the way she percieved it. Its absurd that you are asking this. She might have killed herself for a silly reason. She may have not. What you are demanding is ridiculous.

If you meant suicides in general, and their reason, this is what people have offered. A mental problem like depression mixed with a negligent family or shitty friends, or academic/social/physical issues can cause bad things. It doesn't take a genius to work that out, and I can understand how someone in such particular or dire situations can fall down so hard that they'll keep spiralling down.

You don't know what she had, you don't know whether she was spoilt, you have no idea. All we have is an article that refrains from telling crucial information let alone will never be able to really dig into the truth.

sorry that post i just made was not intended to you.. it was to that wuddie guy

 

[Serius]

lily was a beautiful soul.. but she clearly had problems so deep that no one could have ever forseen..
she never showed signs of being depressed.. never ever being upset about anything.. to me thats not normal.. it's not normal to never be upset..

THAT is the most telling out of all of your posts. When i was depressed i usually showed all the normal signs, like no will to socialise, lack of appetite, staying at home a fair bit... but when i got into some serious depression was when i tried to hide it... happy all the time? sure i can fake that. Violence at home? no1 needs to know, i will just pretend everything is fine.

You shouldnt crack down on wuddie so much, you are emotionally involved so you are going to have a hard time seeing this objectively, but it seems he is as astounded by her suicide as you are. You are involved, but you dont have to take it so personally...this is a discussion on suicide sparked by your friends death, not a thread to berate anyone who brings up something she did to back his argument.

 

[FireFlower]

Instead, you girls give me some weak reasons about anti-depressant and parenting issues and chemical imbalance.

If you click on these two links, you will see pictures of PET scans that compare normal brains to depressed brains.

http://www.biologicalunhappiness.com/depression-images/Depression-PET-Scan-5.jpg
http://www.cerebromente.org.br/n01/pet/petdep.gif

This shows that a chemical imbalance is part of depression. This is not a "weak" reason.

I say just wake up to yourself and live strong, it is not the world or your parents’ fault that your weak and falls into depression over the slightest thing. Pardon me if I am being too harsh, but I think YOU’RE SPOILT.

Depression has nothing to do with "weakness". It is a mental illness that about one in five people will experience at some point in their lives (from beyondblue.org depression factsheet). Its not something you can fix or avoid simply by 'living strong'.
If you want to think that depressed people are spoilt, go ahead and think that. It won't change the facts and it won't change what thousands of medical experts think about depression. [If you want to get into cheap name calling, I think that what you have posted in this thread makes non-school look like a mensa forum]

Ok let’s have a look again at what we have here – a girl who obviously comes from a loving family because she has a special gift, which is dancing, dies just before the hsc. Most of us here assume she died from suicide, which is a result of depression. She refused to seek help or talk to anyone and her actual reason of death is still unknown. Can somebody please tell me, which part of the above deserves our sympathy? That she’s depressed? No. That she killed herself? No, because she wanted it – whether she was thinking clearly or not, THAT WAS WHAT SHE WANTED AND SHE’S GOT IT.

If someone reaches a point where they are depressed enough to kill themselves, then they are in the deepest depths of despair. This is quite probably the worst feeling that human beings are capable of experiencing. If this is how she felt, then yes, she deserves our sympathy.


I'm not sure that she really did get what she wanted. What a suicidal person wants is for their problems and their bad feelings to go away, which can lead them to kill themselves. However, I personally think that suicidal people don't just want death in itself, but rather they want an end to their problems and suffering. I supose in a sense she got what she wanted, but of course there were other ways she could have obtained this. Everyone makes mistakes, and suicide is possibly one of the biggest mistakes that people can ever make. I think that we should feel sorry for her, rather than judging her for a mistake she made (when she was most likely not in a rational frame of mind).

 

[ash7614]

THAT is the most telling out of all of your posts. When i was depressed i usually showed all the normal signs, like no will to socialise, lack of appetite, staying at home a fair bit... but when i got into some serious depression was when i tried to hide it... happy all the time? sure i can fake that. Violence at home? no1 needs to know, i will just pretend everything is fine.

You shouldnt crack down on wuddie so much, you are emotionally involved so you are going to have a hard time seeing this objectively, but it seems he is as astounded by her suicide as you are. You are involved, but you dont have to take it so personally...this is a discussion on suicide sparked by your friends death, not a thread to berate anyone who brings up something she did to back his argument.

you're right i am emotionally involved and i apologise for being so agressive but wuddie is being a little stubbon and not accepting of other people's posts..
he doesn't have to agree but he can can at least accept it..
i agree with some of what wuddie says but the majority just seems cold hearted..i'll however stay out of it from now on..

 

[_dhj_]

I think wuddie's sympathy quotient is a little below average to say the least.

 

[wuddie]

All of you have different opinions, but it becomes apparent that none of you have been convinced, thought some of you start to change you view a bit. that's fair enough, i cant force anyone to change and every one is entitle to their opinion. so to return all you people, with me or against me, a token of respect, i'll reply to your comments.

ur_inner_child - well it seems that you're the only one who really has an insight here. i actually agree with most of the stuff you've said.

ash - i am sorry about your friend's death. but you have to understand where i am coming from, i am not talking about her in particular, i am just using her as a dummy in my examples - so i apologise if i have offended her. get some help if you're depressed, but i swear to god, suicide is not worth it, at all.

fireflower - you only focused on my comments about depression. i understand depression is somewhat uncontrollable, but to the state that you cant control yourself from suicide? that's a lot of crap in one sentence. sorry but i still cant accept it. but your have enough intelligence to convince me that you wont be one of those who kill themselves - unless you want to proof me wrong. jokes.

serius - thanks for sticking up for me, but mate, pitty that 'the chemical imbalance' is messing up their judgements, which is pretty screwed because it only means that if they set their mind to suicidal mode, no one can convince them.

lastly, if anyone ever considers suicide, as my final warning, please don't do it. think back to this forum if you really have to.

i think someone ought to set a forum for the depressed, there'll be quite a few of you. peace.

 

[FireFlower]

fireflower - you only focused on my comments about depression. i understand depression is somewhat uncontrollable, but to the state that you cant control yourself from suicide? that's a lot of crap in one sentence. sorry but i still cant accept it. but your have enough intelligence to convince me that you wont be one of those who kill themselves - unless you want to proof me wrong. jokes.

I understand your reasoning about suicide being a choice. Suicide is by definition a deliberate act, and therefore it is viewed as a choice.

Now that I'm (relatively) recovered from depression, I've been thinking about how I managed not to attempt suicide even though I had made many plans for it. Its made me question just how much depression controlled me and how strong my remaining will really was. There were times when I felt as though I had lost control and that I was losing my grip on reality.

I think that suicide can be looked at in more than one way. Depression can really fuck up your thinking. There were times when I felt that I wasn't even in control of my own mind or thoughts.

Suicide is by definition an action. Actions are generally controlled or influenced by thoughts. (Of course it is possible to act without thinking or considering the consequences, but suicide is generally a planned thing rather than a spur of the moment decision.) If a person clinically depressed and not in control of their thoughts, then are they in control of their actions?

I don't really know what the answer to this is, I'm just trying to show a different way of looking at things.

An extreme example would be someone experiencing a psychotic episode. In this case there would be virtually no control of actions or thoughts, and if a person killed themselves while in this state, then I wouldn't view it as a choice. Psychosis generally occurs as a result of schizophrenia, not depression, although I think that it can occur very rarely in extreme cases of depression.

A less extreme example would be a person suffering from major depressive disorder. This (hypothetical) person is clinically depressed and feels suicidal. There mind is plagued by thoughts that they can't seem to stop. While in this state, they decide that suicide is their only option (obviously it never is, but they can't think clearly). This person then attempts suicide.
How freely is the choice made in this situation, if they didnt have full control of their thoughts? Was there even a choice at all?
Once again, I don't have the answers, I'm just putting it out there as I'm interested in what people think. I'm not trying to prove whether there definately was or wasnt't a choice. I don't think the issue of choice and control in relation to depression and suicide can actually be empirically proven.

I think that wuddie raised a really good point here:

Secondly (damn I am good), you’re all seem to be saying that a patient (assuming it is a natural illness) can’t think clearly when they are in the state of depression. Not that I’ve been through a depression, and not that I ever will, I’ll have to take your words for it. So what exactly do you suppose would be the best treatment for these conditions? Take our dear Elizabeth here for example, and assuming that she suicide under the circumstance that she was depressed (bare in mind that nothing has been confirmed). She has not talked to anyone, decided to take things into her own hands and kills herself. What in the name of God could anyone have done to prevent that? NOTHING, ZILCH.

What can you do when someone is depressed but doesn't seek help and hides it so well that nobody realises whats going on until its too late?

As I didn't know Elizabeth nor her situation, I can't know what (if anything) could have been done in her case.

In general though, I think that people should keep an eye out for subtle signs that something isn't right. Even if it seems like a small thing, its probably worth asking the person if they're ok and letting them know that you're there for them. I think this is especially important during times of heightened stress like the hsc, as stress can worsen depression.

I remember about a year or so ago, when I was quite depressed but didn't really realised it, I went to the doctor. I had been feeling tired all the time, but was unable to sleep through the night. I'd also lost my appetite almost completely and had lost weight. These are all classic symptoms of depression. What did the doctor say? She told me to take some iron pills.
So I think that another important thing in reducing suicide rates is for doctors to always consider mental, as well as physical causes when they are presented with symptoms like mine. If the doctor had bothered to ask me how I'd been feeling emotionally and I'd said that I'd been feeling down, then I might have been treated much earlier, rather than going through a year or so of hell.

But what I think is the most important thing that needs to be done is for people to have a better understanding of mental illnesses. There is such a stigma associated with mental illness, and this can prevent people from seeking help. Depression will affect about 1 in 5 people, so I think that it is imperative that there is more information about it freely available. People need to know that if they feel depressed, they are not alone, and that there is no shame in it. They shouldn't be made to feel as though they are weak or attention seeking, but rather they should know that what they have is a fairly common condition that is treatable and can be recovered from. Most of all, I think it would help if people feel that they can seek help or talk about it without being judged.

 

[glitterfairy]

THAT is the most telling out of all of your posts. When i was depressed i usually showed all the normal signs, like no will to socialise, lack of appetite, staying at home a fair bit... but when i got into some serious depression was when i tried to hide it... happy all the time? sure i can fake that. Violence at home? no1 needs to know, i will just pretend everything is fine.

Just as a side note: (I'm not going to debate anymore, most people in here seem absolutely unwilling to change their minds on the topic so further debate seems futile)

Not everybody shows 'a lot' of signs when they are depressed. When I was severely depressed (around the 3rd or 4th month mark) I had absolutely no idea, and neither did anyone else except two dancefriends I only saw very occasionally (they said I looked 'sad', but as they were the only ones I didn't think much of it).

I was always sleeping, but mum said that was just me being lazy and not eating well enough. For the most part, I was still doing a lot (preparing for several major dance competitions, in rehearsals for a musical etc) and 99% of the people around me thought that I was perfectly normal and perfectly happy (I normally am a very cheerful person/give the appearance of being cheerful all the time, even when I'm not). I only realised something was wrong when situations escalated overnight and I gave serious thought to commiting suicide (one of the abovementioned dancefriends happened to be around in the right place and the right time and talked me out of it).



So in conclusion, depression/suicidal signs are not always the same and some people are able to cover them up (either voluntarily or involuntary).



In regards to treatment, I was lucky enough that I was able to get to people who were on my wavelength (or perhaps I was just so relieved to know that there were people out there who took the possibility of me being depressed seriously. Both my mum and my dance teacher - who has known me since I was six and saw me several times a week - both said "nah I don't think you're depressed"). Several of the severely depressed/suicidal girls at school hated our school counsellor with a passion and got nothing beneficial out of the counselling sessions there, and their parents tried to be so 'supportive' that they felt stifled and it actually made things worse.

One of these girls got referred to a really good psychologist that she got along really well with, though. I just wish that everyone who was ever depressed could get to the 'right' person in time, you know?

I've been thinking about how I managed not to attempt suicide even though I had made many plans for it. Its made me question just how much depression controlled me and how strong my remaining will really was. There were times when I felt as though I had lost control and that I was losing my grip on reality.

I think that suicide can be looked at in more than one way. Depression can really fuck up your thinking. There were times when I felt that I wasn't even in control of my own mind or thoughts.

Oh I so totally second that! The few times I came really close to the cliff end, I remember having this sort of internal debate in my head. One was "Don't do this! Things will get better! Fight through!" and the other one was a "There's no other option. You have to do this. There's no way out" numbing sensation kind of thing.

I guess what worked for me was that I was lucky... I had just enough will left, and I was able to talk to the right people who happened to be there when I needed them to be. I am so sorry for those who weren't able to talk to people in time, but I hold no resentment towards them at all. Depression is a hard, hard thing to fight through...

I think it would help if people feel that they can seek help or talk about it without being judged.

agreed. I think part of the reason my depression got so bad in the first place was because my family never talked about, or accepted depression (or were willing to support someone with it), and so many people I was around said things like "you're always so happy" and "you'll never be depressed" "you? depressed? hahaha yeah very funny" and things like that.

 

[Serius]

how is that different to what i said? i was talking about my own experiences and how they might relate to others. You think it was hard for you? try being a guy its heaps worse.

Oh he isnt depressed, he just needs to get out there and do stuff[/girls? haha]
guys arent supposed to talk about their feelings, we have no real methods for coping within society so we have to find that strength to get through it within ourselves.

Oh he will be right... get a beer into ya.......common advice but not really the best. And like some1 said, alot less guys get depressed so its even harder to find someone to relate to.

Its hard to describe depression when you are suicidal.... its an irrational thought that captures your attention, and even though your own voice is telling you its a stupid idea, your voice is much quieter, it seems almost silent and dissalusioned.

 

[phatic]

Ah yes, it's quite easy to cover up these sorts of feelings. Most people aren't perceptive enough to notice the slight inconsistencies that would tell them that something is wrong. Personally, I used to always put on an act when around others - the 'happy-go-lucky' sort of thing, when actually going out socialising was the absolute last thing I wanted to do.

I still wouldn't tell anyone if I felt that way again. It feels absurd talking about such deep emotions to people who just give you blank looks, who have little understanding of the darker side of life.

I wonder though, does working through depression and the like without the aid of drugs create a stronger character? I mean, if you learn how to deal with these feelings (not rationalising them away), gradually they would have less power over you, and you would not be afraid to feel this way. So, for instance, feeling depressed would not make you suicidal. I think this is a much better solution than taking the anti-depressants path, though of course it wouldn't apply to everyone. Does anyone have any thoughts on this?

 

[FireFlower]

I wonder though, does working through depression and the like without the aid of drugs create a stronger character? I mean, if you learn how to deal with these feelings (not rationalising them away), gradually they would have less power over you, and you would not be afraid to feel this way. So, for instance, feeling depressed would not make you suicidal. I think this is a much better solution than taking the anti-depressants path, though of course it wouldn't apply to everyone. Does anyone have any thoughts on this?

I think in some cases drugs are necessary, especially if you're at risk of suicide. If you are severly depressed then its unlikely that you'd be able to work your way out of it. But drugs don't magicaly fix everything. If someone has been depressed for a while then they will probably have quite distorted thinking patterns, so even though the meds can take away the worst of it, they don't fix the way you react to situations and the way you think - they just unfuck your brain chemicals so that you have a chance at trying to change your thinking.

I'm taking anti-depressants at the moment, and have been for most of the year. At first I was really against the idea because there is a lot of misinformation about them. When I first started taking them there was an intial period where I felt fantastic, but after a while I started to feel bad again. Because I'd been really bad for quite some time and hadn't done anything about it, I was really withdrawn and easily fell into negative thinking patterns. The drugs couldn't change the fact that I'd cut myself off from my friends and that my way of coping with anything bad was to go to bed and cry or hurt myself. You need counselling for that. I'm much better off now that I'm having regular sessions with a pyschologist, but I'm not ready to go off the meds yet. I think its generally accepted that in cases of prolonged major depression, combining anti-depressants with counselling is the most effective method of treating depression (I'm pretty sure I recall one of my psyc lecturers saying this).

As for creating a stronger character, I don't think that taking anti-depressants demonstrates a weakness of character. But I do think that overcoming depression has an effect on character. In a way I feel like I'm stronger for having been through a period of severe depression. I was so low that I came dangerously close to ending it all. But somehow I managed not to, I pulled through even though it felt like there was nothing to live for. I feel as though if I could get through that, then I can get through anything, because nothing will ever feel that bad again.

Also, getting over depression involves learning to adjust your thinking patterns and reactions to events (but that doesn't mean positive thinking and all those cliches, it means realistic thinking). In the past, if something didn't go right for me, like getting a bad mark on an assignment then I'd be all "wah I'm a total failure I'm going to fail my course and the rest of my life as well and die miserable and alone" whereas now it'd be more like "Ok, one bad mark isn't the end of the world, I'm more than capable of doing well, I just need to stop leaving things until the last minute". Another imporant part of it is not allowing yourself to wallow. If I start feeling bad, then I'll do something to distract myself, and I've stopped going to bed in the middle of the day just because I feel down, I force myself to maintain a normal sleeping pattern. I think I'm actually much better at dealing with problems and bad feelings now than I was before i had depression.

 

[glitterfairy]

Ah yes, it's quite easy to cover up these sorts of feelings. Most people aren't perceptive enough to notice the slight inconsistencies that would tell them that something is wrong. Personally, I used to always put on an act when around others - the 'happy-go-lucky' sort of thing, when actually going out socialising was the absolute last thing I wanted to do.

I still wouldn't tell anyone if I felt that way again. It feels absurd talking about such deep emotions to people who just give you blank looks, who have little understanding of the darker side of life.

I wonder though, does working through depression and the like without the aid of drugs create a stronger character? I mean, if you learn how to deal with these feelings (not rationalising them away), gradually they would have less power over you, and you would not be afraid to feel this way. So, for instance, feeling depressed would not make you suicidal. I think this is a much better solution than taking the anti-depressants path, though of course it wouldn't apply to everyone. Does anyone have any thoughts on this?

I do think that depression doesn't neccessarily equal suicidal tendancies, but if one is severly depressed, then they are certainly at risk of becoming suicidal.

In regards to antidepressants I generally agree with everything FireFlower has said (in fact everything in this thread she's written I agree with ). Yes it's nice if everyone is able to get through it drug-free, but not everyone is so lucky. Especially if you've been depressed for a LONG time, or if the depression is very severe, anti-depressants can be neccessary just to get to the point where you're motivated enough to seek/accept counselling.

 

[green_fairy]

No matter whether you were involved personally theres no disputing how tragic Lil's death is.

To further the anguish that was left behind, the principal of OLMC has forbidden Lil's sister from modelling her major work in the school's annual DNT parade and has wiped Lil from the yearbook because it "promotes suicide." This is the biggest amount of bullshit i have heard. It is not about promoting suicide, its about honoring a girl who's vibrance was renowned.

So fired up.

 

[Serius]

is your name supposed to be some sort of allusion to absinthe?

pretty gay trying to pretend like she never existed though.

 

[glitterfairy]

gah, her school did that?

Oh that's awful And so dark ages kind of thing... just because they committed suicide (or died in childbirth, or whatever), they don't exist and people aren't supposed to remember them?

 

[wuddie]

that's exactly what i was talking about, i am glad some intellect outside knows better

 

[becko the gecko]

from reading this discussion it is evident that the issue of suicide is generally misunderstood, ignored and more commonly dealt with in such a way that negative stigma is attached to the victims.

it is really only those that have expereinced suicidal notions that understand lil's actions and even then it is not a full understanding. how are those of us who havent experienced such ideas supposed to know how to deal with let alone react to the implications of such a tragedy.

my school obviously isnt helping in anyway. avoiding the issue to such an extreme that they feel it necessary to deny that lil (one of the most beautiful people) ever lived doesnt offer any support.

friends have no expereince and are feeling the same lack of assistance and parents... well they cant understand how the death of a girl i never spoke to would upset me so much.

the real issue is recognising the seriousness of suicide in society and not sweeping it under the rug but facing it full in the face. people in power need to implement strategies that aim to break down the negative stigma attatched to suicide and work towards providing adequate assistance and ultimately (perhaps only in a perfect world) reducing the incidence of suicide altogether.

may you rest in peace lil.

 

[babydoll_]

To further the anguish that was left behind, the principal of OLMC has forbidden Lil's sister from modelling her major work in the school's annual DNT parade and has wiped Lil from the yearbook because it "promotes suicide."

That is messed up. Does s/he have some sort of personal vendetta against the family for giving the school bad publicity or something? Because that's pretty callous. I hope you guys speak up and get something done about it. That is just not fair.

 

[anialicious]

i went to OLMC...and frankly...im not at all suprised the principal did that...
shes gotta be the worlds biggest b***h to say the least...
i cannot comprehend how she was appointed in the first place...