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Corporal punishment? (2 Viewers)

Do you support corporal punishment?

  • Yes - like the 'good old days'

    Votes: 6 20.0%
  • Yes - in families and within limits

    Votes: 16 53.3%
  • No - never

    Votes: 8 26.7%

  • Total voters
    30

loquasagacious

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Ainslie MacGibbon in smh said:
The cane was banned in Australian schools years ago, and few would argue this was a bad thing. But has the balance swung too far the other way?

Recovered memories are shared about being whipped across the buttocks until enough blood beaded to drip to the floor. Or being made to walk like a duck for an hour. Or dodging chalk, dusters, keys, the beige steel bin - anything within reach to throw. One could be forgiven for mistaking this as a group therapy session for victims of bullies. No, it is just dinner for a group of 30 and 40-somethings, reminiscing about teachers. Primary, secondary, public, private - this is just how it was.

But the recent popularity of the novel The Slap, by Christos Tsiolkas, is indicative of just how taboo physically disciplining a child (especially someone else's) has become - a move lamented by some. As punitive measures have been rejected over the past decade, new models of behaviour management in schools have surfaced. But are they working?

According to NSW Department of Education and Training statistics for government schools last year, almost 3.5 per cent of students in the year 7-10 range received at least one long suspension (up to and including 20 days). A long suspension follows a serious incident, usually involving physical violence, weapons or possession of an illegal substance. Most long suspensions, 74 per cent, came from this age group, followed by 21 per cent from kindergarten to year 6. The number of long suspensions has steadily grown over recent years as a percentage of enrolments.

The department's statistics do not reflect the more common short suspension (up to and including four days), imposed for continued disobedience - disobeying staff instructions, disrupting other students, or alcohol and tobacco use - or aggressive behaviour, including verbal abuse and abuse transmitted electronically. Individual schools maintain a register of students who have received short suspensions.

But suspensions and expulsions are a last resort - the preference is to have schoolchildren in school and to deal with the underlying causes of misbehaviour. Learning results are inextricably linked to behaviour.

Discipline now

"What is happening to our young people? They disrespect their elders, they disobey their parents. They ignore the law. They riot in the streets, inflamed with wild notions. Their morals are decaying." Sound familiar? Probably, because Plato said this in the fourth century BC, and we have been saying it ever since. However, there is a difference now. Previously, a naughty child - and blame - existed in a vacuum. Now we recognise other factors come into play when a child is misbehaving. In education, the circumstances of a child, and the quality of the teaching (and teacher) are examined, too. Discipline has become a two-way street. Discipline and welfare. Rights and responsibilities.

According to one Sydney primary school principal, most parents are apologetic and keen to work in partnership if their child is misbehaving, but in an increasing number of cases "the balance has swung the other way, a parent will defend their child, whether it is a just call or not, claiming all the rights with none of the responsibility. The teacher's hands are tied because that parent will not allow their child to have a few minutes' detention or be withdrawn from a class." Children can be versed in their rights - and increasingly assert them, which is positive, when they are equally cognisant of their responsibilities.

Dianne Giblin, president of the Federation of Parents and Citizens' Associations of NSW, says "misbehaviour is just a symptom of something else. We need to take the next step to find out what that is. Parents and teachers need to work together; there is no place for blame when something goes wrong … I hear calls to bring back the cane from parents all the time, but just not for their child." Parents are very aware when other children misbehave, and the impact that has on their child.

The report Learning Behaviour: Lessons Learned, published by Sir Alan Steer in April, concluded: "Poor behaviour cannot be tolerated as it is a denial of the right of pupils to learn and teachers to teach. To enable learning to take place preventative action is most effective". Although the guidelines for serious incidents of misbehaviour are clear, managing the child who does not misbehave to that extent, but still causes regular disruption and monopolises a teacher's time, is the challenge.

What happened to corporal punishment?

Corporal punishment was banned in all NSW schools during the mid 1990s. Some of the reasons cited for this move were: the link between violence in the community and the use of corporal punishment in schools; its limited capacity to deter unwanted behaviour; corporal punishment encourages an acceptance of violence to resolve conflict; and it is unprofessional.

New behaviour management

Professor Ramon Lewis, of La Trobe University, has specialised in classroom management for more than 25 years. He is now examining the effect of developmental classroom management on student engagement in more than 200 schools in Victoria.

Lewis says there is a natural and increasing tendency for current students to work co-operatively and collectively. He alludes to the argument in educational literature for a shift from authoritarian management towards inclusive and democratic forms of management, although "some teachers just want to tell kids what to do, they think they have the power to dictate without explanation".

Lewis's research has shown that strategies such as hinting, discussion, recognising and reward and involvement are far more effective in reducing misbehaviour than coercion, such as yelling, sarcasm and group punishment. Lewis found aggression was the only strategy that undermined the relationship between teacher and student and made students less likely to comply with expectations for behaviour. And the "ripple effect" - that punishing one student can have on others - is minimised when a teacher uses positive strategies, but exacerbated by the use of aggression.

Hinting "places the student in a position where they are asked to meet adult expectations in an adult manner, thus building their experience base for self-discipline and self-control" while allowing the student to save face. And, according to Lewis, recognising and rewarding positive student and class behaviour has obvious positive benefits for building relationships between students and teachers - fostering an environment of trust and respect in which students are less likely to misbehave. A reward can be as simple as a nod of approval or a smile.

But it is the relationship between student and teacher that is paramount. Lewis says "years of sending a child off to the principal for discipline has done untold damage. It is just sending a child who is already struggling away". Lewis says punishment, when necessary, needs to come from the teacher, within a trusting and mutually respectful relationship.

What about the child who continually disrupts and does not respond to the strategies mentioned? Lewis says "at risk" students are occupying a more central place in schooling than has historically been the case. These students have unmet needs and low self-concept and need to feel a sense of belonging, competence and usefulness. They behave this way in response to feelings of rejection and find it easier to believe the teacher does not like them. And some teachers do not.

Lewis lists four main recommendations to minimise misbehaviour of students at risk. The teacher must stay calm. "A teacher who reacts to an attention-seeker with irritation and annoyance, to a power-seeking student with anger and exasperation, to a revenge-seeking student with fear or hurt, or to a withdrawing student with despair or helplessness, becomes part of the problem, not part of the solution."

The teacher also must give encouragement according to effort rather than achievement, signalling the student is useful and an integral part of the class. The third recommendation is to punish intelligently. Using the student's ability to help someone else - photocopying in the office, or helping maintenance staff - is likely to increase their self-worth and reduce their need for recognition that comes from negative attention. Teachers should also observe the student being competent. This may mean watching them play netball or soccer at lunch or sitting in on a music class. The more a student feels the teacher values them and likes them, the less likely they are to misbehave.

Lewis says that after entering high school the sense of belonging of students decreases until they are about 14. Misbehaviour levels peak over the same period and decline after students enter senior years about the age of 15.
www.smh.com.au - After the cane mutiny

The article really says it all. Do you think that corporal punishment has a place in schools, or indeed in families? Or is it a barbaric anachronism which we should (continue) to stamp out?
 
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Iron

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Teach the rod, spare the child

Srsly, it's so gutless and weak to not do this. Where are the real men in the world? Why does it feel like we're in a constant and humiliating retreat from former convictions? I h8 this, m8s. This bs 'empowerment' and 'rights' crap from these looney left-wing marxist postmodern scum has really taken the wind out of life.
 

loquasagacious

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Teach the rod, spare the child

Srsly, it's so gutless and weak to not do this. Where are the real men in the world? Why does it feel like we're in a constant and humiliating retreat from former convictions? I h8 this, m8s. This bs 'empowerment' and 'rights' crap from these looney left-wing marxist postmodern scum has really taken the wind out of life.
Ah the sweet words of someone else who grew up in a corporal punishment household....
 

Iron

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It's funny, bc everyone who at the time told me that i'd thank them one day for it were right. I thank them all and will do the same to anyone physically inferior to me and under my authority.
I just like the idea of being cruel to be kind etc. I've never bought all this crap about being soft and lovey-dovey to kids. To my mind, it's essentially weakness and selfishness on the adult's part. Raising a child should be hard and involve occasionally unpleasant decisions for the greater good
the greater good

Now it's like fkn 1984, with parents terrified that their monster children will denounce them to the authorities
 

BBJames

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Yeah m8s, wtf is this shit.

I would be fucked both ways; I go to school and get beaten and come home and get beaten.

fuck this fascist shit.

edit: I also remember a time when my year 6 teacher was too scared to say bad things about me to my dad because other parents would scream at the teacher. baah...
 

Serius

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Do what you want in your own home with your own kids, but nobody will ever lay a hand on my kids but me. The first "old school' teacher to try is getting dragged through court. Kids arent animals, they are people. Bad parents beat their kids and scare them into doing the right thing, good parents punish them in non violent ways and teach them why their behaviour was wrong.
 

lychnobity

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Corporal punishment has a place in the household. Sometimes, merely teaching the child and discussing things with the child is not enough - children need to learn that there are consequences for their actions.

Sure, you could ground them, lock them in their room, take away their favourite toys, but it's when it hurts that they'll remember the lesson being taught.

I don't advocate regular use, just enough so the child acknowledges the balance of power within the family. Parents should have authority, not the child.

In a world where parents are being encouraged to compromise with children on a daily basis, we're breeding a generation of selfish, unrestrained idiots. Those kids need to learn respect.
 

Uncle

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Yeah m8s, wtf is this shit.

I would be fucked both ways; I go to school and get beaten and come home and get beaten.

fuck this fascist shit.

edit: I also remember a time when my year 6 teacher was too scared to say bad things about me to my dad because other parents would scream at the teacher. baah...
lol
 

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I am all for parents disciplining their children. That is, teaching that there are consequences for inappropriate behaviour.
While a child is quite young (2-5 perhaps) I'm not at all against the notion of parents giving their kids a quick smack on the bum -enough to hurt for a minute and serve as a deterrent for future misdemenour- but never enough to injure their child.
An occasional spanking when I was little did me no psychological harm (lol) and probably a fair bit of good.
As a child gets older, however, I think parents should find different methods which are more suited to the 'crime' - this teaches responsibility and self government imo.
Example: Child returns home at a much later time that he was required to by parents ( disobedient/ careless with instructions) : Child is not allowed out with friends on the following day, perhaps the following week if he is a repeat offender.
I can't really say I'm in favour of corporal punishment in schools for the simple reason that i think a child is just a bit too old at school age. I'm very much in favour of teacher's having a way to enforce their authority but I'll e the first to admit I have no brilliant ideas for this. In my mind, respect for authority and good behaviour should be encouraged and enforced by parents, alas, I see no way of ensuring or encouraging this.
 

Iron

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I think it's just a joke to ask us whether it's a good idea or not. The very nature of the punishment is arbitrary and cruel; hardly something of a democracy. The two ideas dont mix.

Also, I dont think most people have a right to comment on it - like, setting down what a parent can and cant do in relation to their child. The state is not a parent; it's at full capacity managing the economy and protecting the borders. The mob is not a parent; it is selfish and dirty.

If you want to send your child out into the world to get an education about it, you should not tie the educators' hands behind their back, you should not assume that your child will be a willing participant in what is essentially gaol time. You have to have faith in the school and their abilities and accept that maintaining discipline is, like, one of the most important educations of all. Otherwise homeschool.
Srsly, it's such a rubbish proposition to suggest that children should only learn what they want to and they should not be pressured or forced to learn objective truths, but only encouraged! After all, everything is relative and if they dont want to learn, then that's a valid decision!
 

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Corporal punishment has a place in the household. Sometimes, merely teaching the child and discussing things with the child is not enough - children need to learn that there are consequences for their actions.

Sure, you could ground them, lock them in their room, take away their favourite toys, but it's when it hurts that they'll remember the lesson being taught.

I don't advocate regular use, just enough so the child acknowledges the balance of power within the family. Parents should have authority, not the child.

In a world where parents are being encouraged to compromise with children on a daily basis, we're breeding a generation of selfish, unrestrained idiots. Those kids need to learn respect.
Getting drunk and beating the shit out of your kids isnt "teaching" them anything, especially if they dont fully understand what they did and why their actions were wrong.

Corporal punishment has many adverse psychological affects, and whilst it shows strong short term compliance, it has never shown to be more effective in correcting bad behaviour in the long run. The effects of corporal punishment are still controversial, many studies support the idea of spanking leading to angrier adults who approve of striking a spouse for instance, and if you use it on older kids like teenagers, they learn to deal with their problems with aggression and violence and turn to crime and drugs to deal with their issues because corporal punishment destroys trust bonds between parent and child.

Theres also the continuum idea. Corporal punishment is seen to exist on a continuum with one side representing normal, acceptable punishment e.g spanking and the other considered abuse such as thrashing your kid with a stick. There is no hard line on what is punishment and what is abuse, so a frustrated and angry parent can easily, and often does transition into the zone of abusing their child when they get carried away.

Here's basically my beliefs on the matter and what i have been taught
The Australian Psychological Society holds that physical punishment of children should not be used as it has very limited capacity to deter unwanted behaviour, does not teach alternative desirable behaviour, often promotes further undesirable behaviours such as defiance and attachment to "delinquent" peer groups, and encourages an acceptance of aggression and violence as acceptable responses to conflicts and problems
If you want to raise your kids to be normal, well adjusted people, dont take the easy route out and hit them when they make a mistake, explain to them what they did wrong, and then set an appropriate disciplinary punishment e.g. something like sitting in the naughty chair is very effective and has none of the negatives that just hitting them upside the head would have psychologically.

edit: whilst i advocate against corporal punishment, i also believe it is up the parents to do what they want with their own child. So for this reason i am totally against corporal punishment in schools. BTW these countries have outlawed it, i dont think we should go that far because it really does infringe on rights and i dont want to see parents going to jail or losing their kids because of a mistake or something they saw as necessary

* Austria - illegal since 1989
* Bulgaria - illegal since 2000
* Croatia - illegal since 1999
* Costa Rica - illegal since 2008
* Cyprus - illegal since 1994
* Denmark - illegal since 1997
* Finland - illegal since 1983
* Germany - illegal since 2000
* Greece - illegal since 2007
* Hungary - illegal since 2004
* Iceland - illegal since 2003
* Israel - illegal since 2000
* Latvia - illegal since 1998
* Moldova - illegal since 2009
* Netherlands - illegal since 2007
* New Zealand - illegal since 2007 when the Crimes (Substituted Section 59) Amendment Act 2007 came into effect. However, a citizen-initiated referendum on corporal punishment will be held in mid-2009: see New Zealand corporal punishment referendum, 2009.
* Norway - illegal since 1983 (a light "careful slap" applied immediately after the "offence" is still allowed).[5]
* Portugal - illegal since 2007
* Romania - illegal since 2004
* Sweden - Parents' right to spank their own children (barnaga) was first removed in 1966,[6] and it was explicitly prohibited by law from July 1979.
* Spain - illegal since 2007
* Ukraine - illegal since 2004
* Uruguay - illegal since 2007
* Venezuela - illegal since 2007
 
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loquasagacious

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You have amazing memory :shy: also there were some great Iron posts in that thread.

As for the question though:

I think that corporal punishment has a place in families. Albeit a small place. Parents should be free to discipline their children in a variety of ways including corporal punishment. There are however two important caveats; there is acceptable and unacceptable levels of punishment here. A smack which does no lasting harm is worlds different to beating up a child. It is pretty aparent that corporal punishment has a finite lifespan, you can't start it before a child can understand it and it is worthless to continue it after a child can withstand or resist it. By say age 7/8 (2nd/3rd grade) most children are imo beyond it - they are capable rationally risking the punishment, of gritting their teeth and stoically accepting it if caught. Once children get to teenage years they are capable of hitting back.

Given this lifespan it's not really an option for the majority of the education system. Certainly it is not a useful intervention for a 15 year old boy, much like lashing a convict wasn't that useful. Based on this I don't think there is a place for it in schools.

We do however need a better way of maintaining discipline and forcing problem students to learn and conform, any ideas?
 

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Getting drunk and beating the shit out of your kids isnt "teaching" them anything, especially if they dont fully understand what they did and why their actions were wrong.

Corporal punishment has many adverse psychological affects, and whilst it shows strong short term compliance, it has never shown to be more effective in correcting bad behaviour in the long run. The effects of corporal punishment are still controversial, many studies support the idea of spanking leading to angrier adults who approve of striking a spouse for instance, and if you use it on older kids like teenagers, they learn to deal with their problems with aggression and violence and turn to crime and drugs to deal with their issues because corporal punishment destroys trust bonds between parent and child.

Theres also the continuum idea. Corporal punishment is seen to exist on a continuum with one side representing normal, acceptable punishment e.g spanking and the other considered abuse such as thrashing your kid with a stick. There is no hard line on what is punishment and what is abuse, so a frustrated and angry parent can easily, and often does transition into the zone of abusing their child when they get carried away.

Here's basically my beliefs on the matter and what i have been taught

If you want to raise your kids to be normal, well adjusted people, dont take the easy route out and hit them when they make a mistake, explain to them what they did wrong, and then set an appropriate disciplinary punishment e.g. something like sitting in the naughty chair is very effective and has none of the negatives that just hitting them upside the head would have psychologically.

edit: whilst i advocate against corporal punishment, i also believe it is up the parents to do what they want with their own child. So for this reason i am totally against corporal punishment in schools. BTW these countries have outlawed it, i dont think we should go that far because it really does infringe on rights and i dont want to see parents going to jail or losing their kids because of a mistake or something they saw as necessary
Sorry mate but much of this is a LOAD OF CRAP.
You try explaining to a two year old that pulling things off shelves in a supermarket is naughty. Love to see you try.:santa: This sort of an approach is much more likely to result in a parent losing their temper with their child. Children are not the intellectual equals of their parents, nor have they learnt acceptable social behaviour - they are not going to give a crap about the effect of their behaviour on others - I literally laugh when I see a parent trying to reason with a toddler.
Toddlers are gorgeous, devious, selfish little things that need to know their limitations. A little smack will not psychologically harm them.
 

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Sorry mate but much of this is a LOAD OF CRAP.
You try explaining to a two year old that pulling things off shelves in a supermarket is naughty. Love to see you try.:santa: This sort of an approach is much more likely to result in a parent losing their temper with their child. Children are not the intellectual equals of their parents, nor have they learnt acceptable social behaviour - they are not going to give a crap about the effect of their behaviour on others - I literally laugh when I see a parent trying to reason with a toddler.
Toddlers are gorgeous, devious, selfish little things that need to know their limitations. A little smack will not psychologically harm them.
so science is a load of crap? In general i was talking about older kids, say 8,9 maybe 12 but even then if the 2yr old doesn't understand something is wrong, whats the point in hitting them at all? just pick up the stuff the knocked over and put the kid in the trolley. If they cant even understand yet that something is wrong than no punishment will work. The parents who try and reason with their kids [and 2yrs old is too young to be in school, so lets change this to say 6] are doing it wrong anyway.
You dont reason with them, you simply explain what they did wrong, that their actions have consequences, and then you dish out an appropriate punishment...maybe time out, or buy the other kids a lolly and they got nothing, or they dont get to see their friends that weekend, or banned from the playstation, be creative.

A little smack will not psychologically harm them.
probably not, but did you even read the rest of my post? it isnt just about the little smack, its when parents go off the deep end and think thrashing their 14 yr old kid with a leather belt for "talking back" is good parenting. That sort of punishment IS psychologically damaging, very much so.

Not all corporal punishment is abuse, but i wont ever use it because i dont think using violence is a moral or just way to teach and its proven to not be effective. Do what you want with your own kids in your own home, i dont care but i will fight any legislation intending to allow teachers to abuse my kids.
 

Iron

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But



The boy has no moral choice! Fire and brimstone. That's what's wanted
 

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so science is a load of crap? In general i was talking about older kids, say 8,9 maybe 12 but even then if the 2yr old doesn't understand something is wrong, whats the point in hitting them at all? just pick up the stuff the knocked over and put the kid in the trolley. If they cant even understand yet that something is wrong than no punishment will work. The parents who try and reason with their kids [and 2yrs old is too young to be in school, so lets change this to say 6] are doing it wrong anyway.
You dont reason with them, you simply explain what they did wrong, that their actions have consequences, and then you dish out an appropriate punishment...maybe time out, or buy the other kids a lolly and they got nothing, or they dont get to see their friends that weekend, or banned from the playstation, be creative.


probably not, but did you even read the rest of my post? it isnt just about the little smack, its when parents go off the deep end and think thrashing their 14 yr old kid with a leather belt for "talking back" is good parenting. That sort of punishment IS psychologically damaging, very much so.

Not all corporal punishment is abuse, but i wont ever use it because i dont think using violence is a moral or just way to teach and its proven to not be effective. Do what you want with your own kids in your own home, i dont care but i will fight any legislation intending to allow teachers to abuse my kids.
What you have written in the bold I absolutely agree with.
Also, I too think corporal punishment on older children is useless as well as degrading.
As I'm sure you know, my point is that smacking is a good way of teaching a young child ( 2-5) "No". It isnt about hurting the child back for something they've done wrong, but the pain signals to the child that the behaviour he was engaging in will result in a consequence ( pain on the bottom) hence the child will be deterred (in order to avoid consequence) from such behaviour in the future.
I'm all for saying "no, that is unkind", or "no, that is rude" at the same time - but i fear that simply saying it will result in a parent being ignored - after all , the child hasn't learnt that being rude, disobeying authority figures and being unkind to others has negative side effects. The simplest consequence is a quick bit of immediate physical discomfort.
I think rewarding the other children with a lolly at the end of the day, as you suggested for 6 and older, is a bit mean for a 2-3 year old ( i would certainly employ such a method on most 6 year olds, however) as a toddler would have difficulty remembering what he had done to deserve being denied something special.
EDIT: Also, I agree, abusing children is horrendous - i dont think that smacking a toddler equates with child abuse or is the cause of later abuse.
You mention grounding children, which i feel is a valid way of teaching kids boundaries - however, locking a child in a darkened cellar for a month would be abuse.
Don't throw the baby out with the bathwater :)
Also, not a fan or corporal punishment in schools, I'd be fighting it alongside you.
 
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katie tully

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I didn't read that article Locky, too long, etc, etc.

If you have to resort to whacking your kid to get a point through, you're doing it wrong and you've been doing it wrong for a while. Yeah sure, smack a kid on the bum if he runs out onto the road, or if he/she tries to touch something hot, idk ... But once you get to the age where they're at school, if you have to hit them to get your point across, you're failing as a parent.

With that, I especially despise most teachers and wouldn't trust this generation of teachers with the right to hit my kid.
 

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