co workers (1 Viewer)

[Baiku]

hahaha, i just checked you profile - commerce/law. figures.

I haven't done any finance, and I've done 4 weeks of two commerce subjects...equating to about 25 hours, I doubt it has impacted me so significantly

What I'm asking you is, what social benefit do you derive from spending an extended period of time mourning somebody who has died? I am arguing that you will make yourself feel miserable and reduce the productivity of your own life in the short-term and that there is no benefit in that for ANYBODY.
I don't think those that die would be angry if they knew that after you went to their funeral and spent a day thinking about their life, that you went back to living your own life.

So yes, you can spend a month on the couch mourning someone, and if you tell me the benefit then perhaps I would consider that employers should give employees time off...

 

[*Minka*]

I haven't done any finance, and I've done 4 weeks of two commerce subjects...equating to about 25 hours, I doubt it has impacted me so significantly

What I'm asking you is, what social benefit do you derive from spending an extended period of time mourning somebody who has died? I am arguing that you will make yourself feel miserable and reduce the productivity of your own life in the short-term and that there is no benefit in that for ANYBODY.
I don't think those that die would be angry if they knew that after you went to their funeral and spent a day thinking about their life, that you went back to living your own life.

So yes, you can spend a month on the couch mourning someone, and if you tell me the benefit then perhaps I would consider that employers should give employees time off...

Oh I know as well as anyone that you need to move on from things that happen - I lost three of my brothers and six of my cousins ans my godfather in Yugoslavias war as well as almost losing my own life. I know things go on, but I also know that you need time to deal with emotions and what has happened and that is different for everyone. After the funeral, I usually just need a couple of days to myself to rest and be able to cry when I need it. It is something everyone handles differently.

 

[*Minka*]

That's fair enough.

The thing is about the sexual harrassment, it doesn't sound like your work is provoking it, that is my thought anyway. So while it may not be your job to deal with it, it may be part of your every day life that while unpleasant, still exists.

I don't know a remedy to it, other than perhaps changing social values towards people understanding that it is unacceptable, which isn't really the role of your employer. It isn't really criminal behaviour, despite how it makes you feel.

Anyway, I'm very impressed that you responded in the way that you did rather than trying to rip my balls off over the internet. So for that, you get the thumbs up and I wish you all the best with improving your job satisfaction.

See, I do know there is not much that really can be done about it, but I do think a couple of things could help. A little more understanding from supervisiors and management that it is hurtful and makes you feel really horrible and the other is that we'd appreciate being able to page security when the same people come though doing it to have them asked to leave and stop it. In a former work place, we could do that and it usually scared them enough to make them back off.

And no problem - I understand I sound whingey but I am a firm believer that having a good old whinge is theurapetic (is that the English word?) and that adults can maturely disagree.

 

[Good_riceZ]

WTF is this Baiku dude on??

People die, get on with life? Its not that bloody simple. If you are employed as a casual/part-time, what would be more important perspective wise? Better to gather your emotions rather than turn up to work and get bombarded with more negativity by the sounds of it.

OH BTW, if some sleazy bastard started sexually harassing ANYONE in the street, he can be sued. Also they might be intimidating you, etc etc, Sooo many things that can affect you, if you are objected to the same type of treatment for a certain period of time.

And I believe that it is the organisation/employer who is responsible for your wellbeing as an employee. Very much the same as say, making sure you don't break your back lifting a heavy box when your employment contract strictly dictates that you were not specifically hired for that role. So in essence, you think minka is hired harassed by customers????
Sh!t no. She is there to work as an employee for her set tasks and not be abused by these people. Sure looks might have strengthened her appeal to the employers, but jeesh, this abuse is bloody unacceptable anywhere, and here you are saying managers arent responsible.


/end fcuking useless arguement against a dumbcunt melbournian.

 

[MiuMiu]

Minka, when people make those remarks and you are on the registers: stop serving them, pick up your phone and pretend to dial security. Say 'can I have security to register X please'.

Then hang up and keep serving the customer who has harrassed you in utter silence. The call you just made should be enough to scare them, but if they do keep going, refuse to serve them.

If your supervisors give you shit, tell that you do not have to put up with that kind of treatment from customers and you will take it to the union if they continue to treat you unfairly.

Just cos you're young doesn't mean they can push you around. Stand up for yourself girl.

 

[jooobl]

Sure, I would be saying the same thing to a friend no matter who died. All life concludes with death, there is nothing to gain from sitting around moping for a week because someone you love has died. I always like to think that your loved ones wouldn't want you to be sad either, they'd want you to make the most of your own life. There's certainly a benefit on reflecting on somebody's life after their death, celebrating it and thinking about how they've impacted you, but I really think it is detrimental to spend a long time mourning somebody. Maybe it is my personal opinion and nobody agrees.

Of course not many people are going to agree with you... That is such a shitty perspective, I agree with vodka, you OBVIOUSLY haven't had someone close to you die..

Regardless of that, think of the economy. There are around 7.5 deaths per 1000 people each year. That's 150,000 deaths per year in Australia. Let's say each person has 4 loved ones, which is probably a conservative approach. That's 600,000 lost work days for the funeral-day, and 1.2million lost work days if another day were to be allowed.

I dont know about you but I don't lose 4 people THAT dearly to me each year...



Baiku that is the most shittest thing I have ever heard..

People die get over it? Not only is that unsensitive but it is absolutely unreasonable... When my mother dies of cancer if someone tells me to get over it and get back to work after ONE day of being sad, I am gonna fucking fork their eyes out... I think that you have a very insensitive and unreasonable perspective...

I truly hope you never become an employer, or if you do, you change your point of view and realise not everything in life is about money...

 

[iambored]

IWhat I'm asking you is, what social benefit do you derive from spending an extended period of time mourning somebody who has died? I am arguing that you will make yourself feel miserable and reduce the productivity of your own life in the short-term and that there is no benefit in that for ANYBODY.
I don't think those that die would be angry if they knew that after you went to their funeral and spent a day thinking about their life, that you went back to living your own life.

There is no benefit. Why does there have to be? It's plain and simple that you might just feel like crap and don't want to go anywhere. You're not going to be productive when you want to cry all the time. You can't just think about them for a day on their funeral and then go back to your own life. It doesn't work like that. She wanted one extra day off and it was close family - her aunty. I don't think 1 day off should be a problem. You're making it so simple and calculated, some things can't be calculated. Who cares how many lost work days people might have for funerals, there is more to life than work, money and the economy.

Minka, you shouldn't have to put up with that. Do what MiuMiu said and pretend to call security.

 

[Baiku]

WTF is this Baiku dude on??

People die, get on with life? Its not that bloody simple. If you are employed as a casual/part-time, what would be more important perspective wise? Better to gather your emotions rather than turn up to work and get bombarded with more negativity by the sounds of it.

OH BTW, if some sleazy bastard started sexually harassing ANYONE in the street, he can be sued. Also they might be intimidating you, etc etc, Sooo many things that can affect you, if you are objected to the same type of treatment for a certain period of time.

And I believe that it is the organisation/employer who is responsible for your wellbeing as an employee. Very much the same as say, making sure you don't break your back lifting a heavy box when your employment contract strictly dictates that you were not specifically hired for that role. So in essence, you think minka is hired harassed by customers????
Sh!t no. She is there to work as an employee for her set tasks and not be abused by these people. Sure looks might have strengthened her appeal to the employers, but jeesh, this abuse is bloody unacceptable anywhere, and here you are saying managers arent responsible.


/end fcuking useless arguement against a dumbcunt melbournian.

I told you how I think it is better to get back to your own life. How is it better to stay at home and gather your emotions?

You show me a case where someone has been sexually harrassed in a non-physical manner on a street and sued successfully. Would you like my login details to all of the law-journals my university has access to?

I didn't say Minka is hired to be harrassed. I pointed out that the sexual harrassment she experiences isn't really related to her work, rather it is to do with social values in this country. Her employer does not contribute to her problem. They do not protect her, but it may not be in their interests too, and it certainly isn't their obligation.

I don't know about being a dumbunt Melbournian....I guess if that's the only way you can get your point across then that's how it has to be.

Arguing with people on the internet is a waste of everybody's time, so don't reply unless you feel like enlightening me on specifics that I am wrong about in a sensible manner.

In response to the previous post -

I have had a couple of people very close to me die, assumptions don't work over the internet.
I didn't say 4 people that mean a lot to you each year. I quoted a figure of the Australian death rate, and then proposed that each of those that die might have 4 people that are particularly attached to them. Perhaps their 2 children, their spouse and their sister for example. Those are 4 people that would mourn them particularly to the extent of missing work time as mentioned.

Life isn't about money. I was suggesting the economical detriment related to Minka's concept. That is one aspect. I also believe that NEGATIVE social development occurs to individuals who spend a long time mourning deceased loved ones. I think those that reflect on their lives and then work hard to make them proud, or are more motivated because of it are the ones that benefit, not the ones that mope around fighting with their emotions in bed for a week.

I can guarantee you that I will be an employer one day. So convince me to change my opinions now.

 

[Baiku]

There is no benefit. Why does there have to be? It's plain and simple that you might just feel like crap and don't want to go anywhere. You're not going to be productive when you want to cry all the time. You can't just think about them for a day on their funeral and then go back to your own life. It doesn't work like that. She wanted one extra day off and it was close family - her aunty. I don't think 1 day off should be a problem. You're making it so simple and calculated, some things can't be calculated.

Minka, you shouldn't have to put up with that. Do what MiuMiu said and pretend to call security.

Why does there have to be a benefit?

It is irrational to suggest that an individual would take a course of action that would do anything to the contrary. We all try to maximise our self interest, it's fundamental economics, how the world works.

If you feel like crap, you take a course of action that makes you feel better. That is for your benefit. You may choose to lie down and cry for an hour. That is still a choice.
If you are doing something for any reason other than your own benefit, I think you should consider more what you are actually doing and why.

And yes I acknowledge that Minka may have been better off doing a non-work activity, like spending time with friends for example. However that is her choice based on her work obligations. You cannot expect an employer to be sympathetic to that extent in my opinion.

 

[iambored]

I told you how I think it is better to get back to your own life. How is it better to stay at home and gather your emotions?

I also believe that NEGATIVE social development occurs to individuals who spend a long time mourning deceased loved ones. I think those that reflect on their lives and then work hard to make them proud, or are more motivated because of it are the ones that benefit, not the ones that mope around fighting with their emotions in bed for a week.

I really don't give a crap about economical development because I don't rate it high on my priorities so I will not mention any of that. Simply because I don't think people should be so focused on money when there are so many more important things.

So as for the social development, I understand what you are saiying but your approach seems to be a "just get over it" approach. You don't seem to be considering the person at all. The majority of time people don't choose to spend so long mourning, it just happens because it's natural. They miss the person. They can't just get over it when they are still coming to terms with the person missing from their life and how their life will change. There is nothing wrong with "moping" for a week, as you call it, it's called mourning. Mourning is natural, it's expected, (it's even considered needed and if you, as a manager, will expect your employees to get back to work, to not to go through the mourning process... you don't have much of a understanding of humans.

I can guarantee you that I will be an employer one day.

I was sure of that by the time I read the first 2 paragraphs of this post

 

[iambored]

The "why does there have to be a benefit?" question I asked was considering a 'social' benefit. That there is no benefit to their social situation in the short term. Personal and long term benefits are explained below

Why does there have to be a benefit?

It is irrational to suggest that an individual would take a course of action that would do anything to the contrary. We all try to maximise our self interest, it's fundamental economics, how the world works.

If you feel like crap, you take a course of action that makes you feel better. That is for your benefit. You may choose to lie down and cry for an hour. That is still a choice.
If you are doing something for any reason other than your own benefit, I think you should consider more what you are actually doing and why.

And yes I acknowledge that Minka may have been better off doing a non-work activity, like spending time with friends for example. However that is her choice based on her work obligations. You cannot expect an employer to be sympathetic to that extent in my opinion.

What you don't seem to understand is that mourning is giving the ultimate benefit. You need that time to come to terms with what has happened, going back to your life and pushing it away is not helping you deal with it, mourning helps people deal and then eventually move on, in their own time.

And it will happen. If you understand people need time, that it's natural to need time, and give them time, they will eventually come to terms with it and get back to their life. It's worse when for people to push it aside and get on with things without fully coming to terms with the situation

 

[Baiku]

I really don't give a crap about economical development because I don't rate it high on my priorities so I will not mention any of that. Simply because I don't think people should be so focused on money when there are so many more important things.

So as for the social development, I understand what you are saiying but your approach seems to be a "just get over it" approach. You don't seem to be considering the person at all. The majority of time people don't choose to spend so long mourning, it just happens because it's natural. They miss the person. They can't just get over it when they are still coming to terms with the person missing from their life and how their life will change. There is nothing wrong with "moping" for a week, as you call it, it's called mourning. Mourning is natural, it's expected, (it's even considered needed and if you, as a manager, will expect your employees to get back to work, to not to go through the mourning process... you don't have much of a understanding of humans.


I was sure of that by the time I read the first 2 paragraphs of this post

I think you underestimate me, but it's irrelevent whether I have an understanding of humans or not. We are just having a discussion. Having a different opinion doesn't cause a problem for me as it seems to for you.

Firstly, economics is not solely about money. It is about the growth of quality of life. It happens through an economy that involves money, but at the end of the day, economic interests are what allow us to have our conversation over the internet at home, in a comfortable chair, knowing we don't have to go and harvest a field with our bare hands at sunrise.

As for mourning - consider practices of people in other parts of the world. Some cultures have a wake, where they CELEBRATE the life of the person who has passed away. Instead of crying, they break out the champagne and enjoy the fact that the person existed and had a positive impact on people and the world in whatever way that they did. To me, that is more sensible - what do you think?

 

[jooobl]

My mum has cancer... She is very ill... We don't know if she will survive the next 5 years...

I am sure there are many other people in my position... If she does happen to die, I am not going to take one day off work for a funeral, and turn up the next day like nothing had happened... I will not be in the mood for it at all NOR will I be very productive.... What you are saying is that profits and economy is MORE important than natural emotions...

s for mourning - consider practices of people in other parts of the world. Some cultures have a wake, where they CELEBRATE the life of the person who has passed away. Instead of crying, they break out the champagne and enjoy the fact that the person existed and had a positive impact on people and the world in whatever way that they did. To me, that is more sensible - what do you think?

Well sorry that I haven't been brought up in that manner, but if my mum does die I am going to cry because I will MISS her- and it will take some time to recover (if ever), I am hardly going to pop open the champagne...

 

[Baiku]

My mum has cancer... She is very ill... We don't know if she will survive the next 5 years...

I am sure there are many other people in my position... If she does happen to die, I am not going to take one day off work for a funeral, and turn up the next day like nothing had happened... I will not be in the mood for it at all NOR will I be very productive.... What you are saying is that profits and economy is MORE important than natural emotions...

Well sorry that I haven't been brought up in that manner, but if my mum does die I am going to cry because I will MISS her- and it will take some time to recover (if ever), I am hardly going to pop open the champagne...

I'm sorry for your circumstance, it must be hard for you.

I am not saying that profit and economy is more important than natural emotions, it's unfortunate that we have that misunderstanding.

I also think it is a shame that we have been brought up to mourn people as we do. What do you think? Would it be better if we celebrated life rather than comiserate with those that lose people that they love?

 

[iambored]

I think it's unreasonable to think that they would not feel sadness, even if they have a wake. They might have been brought up to feel happiness and celebrate the life but I still think that the hole left in their life would make them feel some sort of sadness. I will research this more when I have time.

I think it is unreasonable to expect your employees to come to work the day after a funeral when they obviously aren't feeling up to it. People aren't black and white.

I understand your opinion, I see what you are saying, but the problem it causes me is that it's not natural (it might be for some but not for the majority) and you expect other people to be the same when it's in human nature not to act as you have described. It also troubles me because as a future employer the vibe I am getting from your posts is that you won't be understanding of your employees and their situations and you will expect them to work like you do and get back to their life when they might be virtually incapable of doing so.

Sorry to hear that jooobl

 

[*Minka*]

Not to drag this off topic too much, but I think it is important to remember that everyone mourns and deals with death in different ways. It is a very indivdual thing. As for what I consider harassment - it is mainly the bitch on an ego trip who is roughly fifty kilos overweight (a conservative estimate) telling me to 'deal with it'. I totally know she means 'you are twenty years younger and about eighty kilos lighter - deal with it you skinny whiney teenage bitch.' Pretty much everything about this woman screams 'disgruntled retail bitch'. The moodyness swings, the feeling of superiority for being one level above a checkout operator, taking out her issues on a bunch of teenage kids, etc.

And for that? FUCK HER.

 

[Baiku]

I think it's unreasonable to think that they would not feel sadness, even if they have a wake. They might have been brought up to feel happiness and celebrate the life but I still think that the hole left in their life would make them feel some sort of sadness. I will research this more when I have time.

I think it is unreasonable to expect your employees to come to work the day after a funeral when they obviously aren't feeling up to it.

I understand your opinion, I see what you are saying, but the problem it causes me is that it's not natural (it might be for some but not for the majority) and you expect other people to be the same when it's in human nature not to act as you have described. It also troubles me because as a future employer the vibe I am getting from your posts is that you won't be understanding of your employees and their situations and you will expect them to work like you do and get back to their life when they might be virtually incapable of doing so.

Sorry to hear that jooobl

Where I have experienced loss I have always focused on the happy memories I shared with that person and tried to hold on to them for as long as possible - making sure I remembed some of them forever.

Perhaps you are right and my opinion is not "normal". However, nothing is natural in our world as you say. We are brought up a certain way, and in that regard society may dictate that we SHOULD be upset about somebody's death. I think it makes more sense not to be upset, which is why I have tried to fuel this discussion a bit.

I am actually very empathetic. I don't believe that Milka's employer is obligated to give her a day off or be considerate of her circumstance - but that is quite contrary to how I believe managers should run workplaces.

Anyway - I only started posting in here because I wanted to fuel a bit of thought, both mine and other peoples. Regardless, arguing on the internet is stupid, so I'm quite happy for this to be my last post in this thread, and for it to go back to co-worker rants as it should.

Enjoy.

Edit - I'm not trying to have the last word or back down or anything... if anyone wants to keep discussing with me about anything they are welcome to in private , I just won't respond to this thread anymore. You can pm me or msn me if you want to argue at me further and tell me I'm wrong - My door is always open

 

[jooobl]

I'm sorry for your circumstance, it must be hard for you.

I am not saying that profit and economy is more important than natural emotions, it's unfortunate that we have that misunderstanding.

I also think it is a shame that we have been brought up to mourn people as we do. What do you think? Would it be better if we celebrated life rather than comiserate with those that lose people that they love?

I think it is important to remember and feel a sense of loss when someone close to you passes... I just hope for your sake and for the sake of others you give the people the time they need to grieve when they become your employees- if that ever happens...

My employer is very practical and profit based... But the day I broke down crying at the registers due to my mum losing all her hair and not knowing her future and her just being really depressed, he brought me into his office, talked to me- made me feel better about myself and told me that if I needed any time off in the future that it was fine, he told me that I was a great employee and that he would not get mad at me for getting upset and taking that time off to talk to him (went on for about 45 minutes)... After that chat I felt alot more confident and wanted to get back to work...


The best employers are those that can balance the importance of their job with the respect and understanding of their employees...

So I think it was not unreasonable for Minka to request a day off after a funeral at all... and Minka, you really need to listen to what I am saying and do something about your situation!!

 

[hipsta_jess]

I've said it before, and I'll say it again:

Dearest Darling Management:

Please do not expect casual staff to make Bilo their lives when it is only a crappy job to get us through uni. This particularly applies when you treat us like shit, make our lives hell, and give us a grand total of three, yes THREE hours one week purely because you're incompetant and can't manage your budget.

Thankyou very much,

Love,
Jess.

 

[Cyph]

it's not hard to figure out

you're casual, you get rung up to do a shift... do it, do it a few times and they'll roster you on with regular hours and some consistency because you're in their good books and make their life easy by being reliable and dependent. even hit them up to roster you on more consisently when they ring you.

it ain't rocket science, you gotta give a bit to take a bit.