Catholic Church and HIV/AIDS in Africa. (3 Viewers)

[SnowFox]

Actually it's pretty fucking simple. Remove church influence in policy (and why are churches tax exempt, might I ask?), and everyone's happier!

This^

 

[Tully B.]

In regards to what's wrong with the Church shutting their mouth? About as much as there is wrong with people just not having ex-marital sex.

This is what the people hear from the Church, which many people respect and look towards for moral guidance:
"Don't have have sex before marriage and don't use condoms"
Admittedly, what they say is more complicated than that, but for many this it is the general gist and many don't try to interpret anything beyond this simple idiom.

The people, however, really, really want to have sex. They think to themselves "I'm not going to disobey more than one of the Church's teachings, so that won't make it too bad. That means I'll only have one sin to confess".

What the Church is effecively doing is punishing those who disobey one of their teachings with AIDS. Though it is not completely their fault, they do play a role in the process, and for that role they should receive partial blame.

 

[Tully B.]

Lol WooOOOOW you have so much information. If you know all this, why do you bother asking a forum? Hahahaha...

He wants to see how many people disagree with him. Also, in his heart of hearts, I believe that he is edging slightly towards our side of the argument. It is just a question of degrees (i.e. to what extent is the Church responsible).

 

[Lentern]

This is what the people hear from the Church, which many people respect and look towards for moral guidance:
"Don't have have sex before marriage and don't use condoms"
Admittedly, what they say is more complicated than that, but for many this it is the general gist and many don't try to interpret anything beyond this simple idiom.

The people, however, really, really want to have sex. They think to themselves "I'm not going to disobey more than one of the Church's teachings, so that won't make it too bad. That means I'll only have one sin to confess".

What the Church is effecively doing is punishing those who disobey one of their teachings with AIDS. Though it is not completely their fault, they do play a role in the process, and for that role they should receive partial blame.

That is not what the church is doing, effectively, perhaps it is those kind of fortune cookie catch phrased smeers which lead to people mistaking the church's position so often.

The church can not be held responsible for individuals projecting their own far fetched interpretations and exemptions on Rome's guidlines. It may be within the Church's powers to curb the effects of aids but they do not act in a way that exacerbates or causes the problem and as such are not responsible.

 

[SnowFox]

That is not what the church is doing, effectively, perhaps it is those kind of fortune cookie catch phrased smeers which lead to people mistaking the church's position so often.

The church can not be held responsible for individuals projecting their own far fetched interpretations and exemptions on Rome's guidlines. It may be within the Church's powers to curb the effects of aids but they do not act in a way that exacerbates or causes the problem and as such are not responsible.

Then why doesnt the Vatican get off their ass' and fix the problem of their "followers" fucking their religion up.

 

[Tully B.]

The church can not be held responsible for individuals projecting their own far fetched interpretations and exemptions on Rome's guidlines. It may be within the Church's powers to curb the effects of aids but they do not act in a way that exacerbates or causes the problem and as such are not responsible.

Yes they can, especially if the Church doesn't correct these interpretations. They do exacerbate the problem by saying "using condoms is wrong". If they didn't say it, the AIDs epidemic would be less severe and thus they can be held responsible.

blah blah blah

Thank you for your input.

 

[Sir-BigBoyJames]

seriously speaking though, who the fuck takes the catholic church seriously? WHO?
fucking stupid fucks.

 

[Lentern]

they can not say using condoms is right though, cos see the catholic church teaches that the pope is infaliable, so if he says don't use condoms it is wrong, they can not come back the next day and say, oh sorry we made a boo boo go for your life use condoms we don't want you to get aids now. If they did they would be contradicting there own teaching that condom's are wrong, and thus be proving that the pope is not infaliable.

Papal infallabiliy is largely ignored by catholics. It can equate to the authority the Queen has over the british armed forces. The Pope is Saint Peters representative who fell asleep when Jesus asked him to keep watch for one hour and thrice denied knowing Jesus before the cock crowed. We are more than open to the idea he is wrong even if Iron personally is not. From my fading memory or year nine RE the Pope only once invoked the dogma in the past two hundred years and a lot of people within the church say he shouldn't have. Benedict to my knowlege has never invoked papal infallability.

Yes they can, especially if the Church doesn't correct these interpretations. They do exacerbate the problem by saying "using condoms is wrong". If they didn't say it, the AIDs epidemic would be less severe and thus they can be held responsible.

What ridiculous thing to say. The church sets out its doctrines, it explains them. We are no totalitarians if people choose to spin it in a certain way contrary to our explanations that is entirely there decision. And the church does not exacerbate the problem if people chose to live within the church's laws they will be extremely unlikely to contract AIDS. If they put themselves outside of the church then they or another influence on them is to blame for what thereafter happens. Until someone proves that abstaining makes it more likely for you to contract AIDS our hands our clean.

 

[Lentern]

Then why doesnt the Vatican get off their ass' and fix the problem of their "followers" fucking their religion up.

We do a fair bit of. Could do abit more if these governments were trying to take our money to spend on condoms.

 

[Tully B.]

seriously speaking though, who the fuck takes the catholic church seriously? WHO?
fucking stupid fucks.

Over a billion people, apparently. Scary, right?

they can not say using condoms is right though, cos see the catholic church teaches that the pope is infaliable, so if he says don't use condoms it is wrong, they can not come back the next day and say, oh sorry we made a boo boo go for your life use condoms we don't want you to get aids now.

So you're saying that the Church should not say "we don't want you to get aids now" simply because this crazy concept would contradict previous teachings. It seems to me that the Church bases a lot of its decisions on pride.

If they put themselves outside of the church then they or another influence on them is to blame for what thereafter happens. Until someone proves that abstaining makes it more likely for you to contract AIDS our hands our clean.

But they only are only putting themselves partially out of the Church, obeying one rule (no condoms) and disobeying another (no sex). It is the mixture of the two, the obeying of Church law and the disobeying of it, which increases the spread of AIDs.

We do a fair bit of. Could do abit more if these governments were trying to take our money to spend on condoms.

Are you personally against Governments of First World countries providing Africa and South America with contraception and education with regards to contraception? This is outside of the argument; I'm just curious.

 

[Lentern]

Over a billion people, apparently. Scary, right?



So you're saying that the Church should not say "we don't want you to get aids now" simply because this crazy concept would contradict previous teachings. It seems to me that the Church bases a lot of its decisions on pride.



But they only are only putting themselves partially out of the Church, obeying one rule (no condoms) and disobeying another (no sex). It is the mixture of the two, the obeying of Church law and the disobeying of it, which increases the spread of AIDs.



Are you personally against Governments of First World countries providing Africa and South America with contraception and education with regards to contraception? This is outside of the argument; I'm just curious.

No my friend canon law is complex, finely balanced and deliberate. If someone decides they know better more power to them. But don't come hammering on the cathedral doors demanding we take responsbility for the individuals arrogance.

In regards to your question, I think there are better ways to spend the money. I have no problems if autonomous groups do so.

 

[moll.]

Roughly 1 in 9 Africans are Catholic. South Africa and Nigeria have the highest Aids rates and they aren't Catholic countries by any means.

Uganda which is one of the more Catholic Countries in Africa has the lowest Aids rates in the region.

The Phillippines has a low Aids rate and it's a Catholic country whereas a country like Thailand has a huge Aids problem and it's not a Catholic Country.

I think you have your answer.

And Japan has a low AIDS rate and it's not Catholic.
Shove that into your anecdotal pipe!

 

[moll.]

they can not say using condoms is right though, cos see the catholic church teaches that the pope is infaliable, so if he says don't use condoms it is wrong, they can not come back the next day and say, oh sorry we made a boo boo go for your life use condoms we don't want you to get aids now. If they did they would be contradicting there own teaching that condom's are wrong, and thus be proving that the pope is not infaliable.

lol. So naive...
Try reading up on Limbo, Creation, Indulgences, Galileo, Baptism,and so on, ad infitum.
The Roman Catholic Church has frequently changed it's official theology and doctrine throughout history. Contradictions are thus frequent.

 

[Lentern]

lol. So naive...
Try reading up on Limbo, Creation, Indulgences, Galileo, Baptism,and so on, ad infitum.
The Roman Catholic Church has frequently changed it's official theology and doctrine throughout history. Contradictions are thus frequent.

He is right to an extent, the church stands by statements of papal infallability, but it has only been invoked like half a dozen times in the church's history.

 

[moll.]

He is right to an extent, the church stands by statements of papal infallability, but it has only been invoked like half a dozen times in the church's history.

If they have the gall and the ability to destroy an entirely seperate state of the universe (re: limbo) without raising an eyebrow, then I'm pretty sure papal infallibility is a walk in the park.
Besides, I mostly replying to his disbelief that the Church could contradict itself and no-one would care. It's done this many times throughout history.

 

[Tully B.]

My point stands, it's not the Catholics in Africa who suffer from Aids. How can the Pope be blamed for Aids spreading through non-catholic countries such as South Africa and Nigeria?

Your point does not stand. It is simple and naive; base solely on biased statics given without any context. The fact that "1 in 9 Africans are Catholic" does not express the magnitude of the Church's influence in Africa. We had this exact argument about 15 pages back, and it's as stupid now as it was then.

Lentern puts forward his views and backs them up with numerous arguments, which in turn provides the format for a sophisticated discussion. You, however, are a twit.

 

[Kwayera]

My point stands, it's not the Catholics in Africa who suffer from Aids. How can the Pope be blamed for Aids spreading through non-catholic countries such as South Africa and Nigeria?

And you know this how?

 

[Tully B.]

no i think they should say that but they won't cos that will contradict some more of there teachings which are also stupid and dumb.

Ohhhh, right. Cool. I agree. They probably won't say it. They should but they won't.

 

[Tully B.]

glad we agree...... tbh i don't even know why they are against condoms it is a silly teaching.

They think havin' the sex is all about makin' the babies; nothing more, nothing less. Damn silly.

 

[Tully B.]

that is just silly

Go tell that to the pope. But in German.