Bible verses often ignored by Christians (2 Viewers)

[funnybunny]

i'd just like say that erin's posts r simply ignorant and fails common logics of argument (i.e U CANNOT use something as evidence to prove itself!!)
AND it would be the same IF i simply said that "christianity is plainly wrong, I can't see how anyone who gives it long thought could stay christian"

in the end, u cant argue with christians cause in the end they all say u;ve got 2 hav faith, even if theres bookshelves of evidence mounting against them!

 

[Lexicographer]

I'm supposed to be studying for an exam tomorrow, but after a quick scan of this thread I'd just like to lodge two concerns (hopefully to be expanded upon later).

a) Luther's scholarly capacity. This is something that's been debated furiously for half a millenium, but I won't go into it here because it could all to easily be considered an ad hominem attack by readers less interested in his actual authority to decide which text were or were not inspired (I use the word in the formal theological sense). My mention of his personal theology includes the idea that the Church has no more or less authority than the laity to "decide" which texts are inspired and thus make up the canon of scripture. This rejection of ecclessial authority (formally both heresy and schism) is the fundamental error which faults all his further arguments.

b) I think at this point I must disagree with Wilmo. He seems to be speaking from a very Calvinist perspective, in which humans are totally and fundamentally evil by nature. The Catholic church teaches otherwise - in the Beginning God created man and woman, and he created them Good. It was and is NOT in our principal nature to hate, to be jealous, to be selfish. It was the stain of original sin that caused humanity to lose the Divine Grace that keeps us in union with God, and with the loss of this grace came selfishness and all that follows, including jealousy and hate. Thus because we are no longer born with Grace (but must be made open to it by baptism) we are more "naturally" inclined to sinful dealings, such as jealousy and hate.

Wilmo is right in saying that it is "humanly impossible to love as wholly and completely as God", however it is precisely because of this that he is wrong to call God jealous. Jealousy is a desire for benefit to one self, whereas God is in fact totally unselfish and thus incapable of jealousy. Rather, by giving Himself totally for man He showed Himself to be selfless.

God in no way needs us for His own Glory - total perfection can never be added to or improved upon, and so us "giving God glory" is not about making him in some way greater. Rather, doing due homage to God actually increases our own personal glory, as sons and daughters of the Most High. This is not a selfish kind of personal glory, wherein we seek to deviously magnify ourselves by paying lip service to God, but rather the kind of true, pure glory we receive when we act justly by submitting to God's love.

 

[Lexicographer]

in the end, u cant argue with christians cause in the end they all say u;ve got 2 hav faith, even if theres bookshelves of evidence mounting against them!

I never said that "you need to have faith" as an attempt to prove something. Faith is itself a gift, but faith without reason is not true faith.

Furthermore, there are bookshelves of arguments, not evidence. Religion is technically neither provable nor disprovable - that's the point of faith. We make a conscious decision to believe something for which the evidence, though present, does not make impossible disbelief.

 

[yy]

god is jealous though, at least according to NIV translation.
You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the LORD your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the fathers to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me - Exodus 20:5, Deuteronomy 5:9
Do not worship any other god, for the LORD, whose name is Jealous, is a jealous God. - Exodus 34:14
For the LORD your God is a consuming fire, a jealous God. - Deuteronomy 4:24
for the LORD your God, who is among you, is a jealous God and his anger will burn against you, and he will destroy you from the face of the land. - Deuteronomy 6:15
Joshua said to the people, "You are not able to serve the LORD. He is a holy God; he is a jealous God. He will not forgive your rebellion and your sins. - Joshua 24:19
The LORD is a jealous and avenging God; the LORD takes vengeance and is filled with wrath. The LORD takes vengeance on his foes and maintains his wrath against his enemies. Nahum 1:2
some may be taken out of context, i'm not sure.
p.s. even though wilmo is my hero, i disagree that it's natural for us to hate people.

 

[Lexicographer]

Yeah congratulations, you can quote the Bible. But do you know what it means? Do you know why these particular words were chosen? Do you even know who wrote them?

I'll say up front that I haven't studied the Law yet, so don't expect any deep theology on the meaning of "God's Jealousy" right now. However, I would like to raise the point that the Tanakh is the oldest part of Hebrew Scripture, before all the prophets. Thus, if you accept the understanding that our view of God grows and deepens over time, you must realise that the first books portray God according to the simplest, most "primitive" (meaning first, not "uncultured") way. They saw and understood God as a child would, in human terms. "Since God doesn't like people worshipping things that aren't him, he must be jealous".

Jealousy as known to humans (ie envy of what others have) is selfish and sinful. However, God is by definition incapable of either selfishness or sin, thus it is impossible for him to be "jealous" as humans know it. Rather, his "jealousy" is a poor way of describing his reaction to sin. I mentioned before that all sin springs from selfishness - wanting for ourselves that which we should really want for God (namely, authority, power, control, glory, praise etc). In our selfishness we turn away from God and make ourselves our own "gods", acting for our own glory instead of for His. In doing so, we deprive ourselves of His divine presence (since we cannot serve both God and ourselves, thus casting Him out of our lives) leaving us incomplete. Ultimately, we grow to hate God as a competing force, and since those who are hateful to God can not stand be in his presence, they must go to a different place, a place totally without God. For those playing at home, this is the definition of hell. Basically, in his total respect for free will, God gives people hell because they could not stand to be in heaven - hell is a choice of the individual, not of God.

Having written all that, I finally had a chance to go back up and read Wilmo's point properly and realise that it wasn't him who was wrong but the interpretations of those who read his post.

 

[MoonlightSonata]

God Worship

May I ask - because I am interested to know - a few questions about what theists believe about worshipping god:

1. Why should people worship god?

2. Is doing such a thing fundamentally selfish, since it would be in human interest to do so?

3. What is meant by "god's glory" and why should humans act "for god's glory"?

4. Why does god want us to worship him/her/it?

 

[+Po1ntDeXt3r+]

a) Luther's scholarly capacity. This is something that's been debated furiously for half a millenium, but I won't go into it here because it could all to easily be considered an ad hominem attack by readers less interested in his actual authority to decide which text were or were not inspired (I use the word in the formal theological sense). My mention of his personal theology includes the idea that the Church has no more or less authority than the laity to "decide" which texts are inspired and thus make up the canon of scripture. This rejection of ecclessial authority (formally both heresy and schism) is the fundamental error which faults all his further arguments.

i am assuming u mean ecclesial authority
and only on the fear of heresy did others not speak up.. the context of his actions during the period he was not the only one..

you make Luther sound lik a sole lunatic.. he was a preacher.. a theologian.. and yet he formed a revolution regarding books with inconsistancies... indulgence and the abuse of power at that time... he inspired a group of other theologian

i dun completely agree with him and their group of theologians as there is an associated level of anti-semitism (not relating to other works with little to no evidence) to them... .. but then really no man has not made mistakes in a belief of self-righteousness

 

[SashatheMan]

how do you all thiests know the characterists of god? or what he wants from us?
Maybe he doesnt give a f*** what people do , he just created a place and then got bored of it, kinda like a kid getting an aqaurium and then losing interest in the fish.
i keep hearing people say, if you saw god you would be so shocked, amazed etc etc that you couldnt live anylonger. Who the hell knows what would happen if one sees god.

 

[Lundy]

Nobody knows the nature of god (assuming he exists). It's rather presumptuous to bestow him with attributes.

Theists can argue until they're blue in the face that their perception of god as taught to them by their religion is correct. I think the only way anyone can ever know for sure is when they die (and even then, there is no guarantee you'll "meet" god when you die).

 

[ur_inner_child]

how do you all thiests know the characterists of god? or what he wants from us?
Maybe he doesnt give a f*** what people do , he just created a place and then got bored of it, kinda like a kid getting an aqaurium and then losing interest in the fish.
i keep hearing people say, if you saw god you would be so shocked, amazed etc etc that you couldnt live anylonger. Who the hell knows what would happen if one sees god.

if i were God, i'd probably hope that people would shut up, stop looking up, and start looking around. I wouldn't be so self absorbed to make sure everyone knew about me and loved me, or punish those who don't.

Just let people carry on with their lives as if I didn't exist, and STILL without knowing about me, lead beautiful lives. I would be truly proud.

Please don't preach to me, I'm in a very bitter mood.

 

[Wilmo]

I'm sorry, you're saying God is jealous? Don't Christians believe that God is perfect? Wouldn't perfection entail not having such flaws as jealousy?

The best way i can explain that is by saying that you're putting human emotions back on to God. And since i'm claiming that humans are flawed, if God has our emotions ergo he must naturally be flawed as well.

All i can say is that jealousy is not a flaw when in it's right to be jealous. We often see jealousy as something that causes people to want what someone else has or it makes them bitter they are missing out. But that is not so much what jealousy is about.

Example; Say you are married to someone. They have promised to "forsake all others" as the vows say. Well, in this sense you would be jealous for their love. You don't want them to give their love to someone else, and rightly so. It is not a bad thing/selfish thing to want. It is a good thing.

Jealousy becomes bad when we start to think "Maybe they do love someone else, I have to do something to change that."

It's a poor example, but in that sense God is jealous for your love. He doesnt want you to love anything less than him because that's exactly what you are settling on... LESS! He wants you to love him and only him. And his jealousy is not flawed like ours is, so it is right of him to be jealous.


Our "negative emotions" do not stem from a flawed God who has these attributes, but from our own corruption of the positive counterparts. Because we cannot love fully, we hate. Because we cannot be always joyful, we are angry. Because we cannot be jealousy properly, our jealousy is a negative thing most of the time.

In essence, we are a corrupt image of God and this corrupts our emotions. To apply our emotions to God is incorrect because his emotions are what apply to us.


And I'm sorry MS, I fully intend to try and answer you're 4 questions, but I'm really tired. I'm sure you'd appreciate more detailed answers over the ramblings of someone who needs sleep Hopefully I will get around to it soon.

p.s. even though wilmo is my hero, i disagree that it's natural for us to hate people.

Ha... That made me laugh. Thanks for the compliment, but I think you may need a better hero

And I'm fine for you to disagree with me on that... In the end it doesnt matter whether its natural or unnatural. The fact is we still do it and it's not right.

 

[davin]

thats not jealousy to worry they love someone else, thats insecurity. and frankly, (not to veer too far off topic) if you really love them, you'd let them follow whatever path would make them happiest.

 

[Wilmo]

You misunderstood what I was saying. Being jealous for their love is wanting them to love you and only you (which is right because it is what they promised to do). In that sense jealousy is a good emotion to have. It's kind of hard to understand because we're not used to thinking about it that way.

Jealous can mean vigilant in guarding something. So for God to be jealous not only means he does not tolerate infedelity, but also that he will do everything in his power to keep our love. And that's a lot

That is different to being worried that they won't still love you. That is, as you said, insecurity. Our insecurities often turn jealousy into the flaw that we know. But since God is not insecure, his jealousy is not corruptable.

 

[malkin86]

how do you criticise something for not being original because it seems too similar to the da vinci code when, theres at least the implication that there its an original theory? the da vinci code, while i think it was a very well written book, wasn't what i'd call an original concept, per se, because it was an existing theory.

The da vinci code is a work of fiction - people like a conspiracy theory, even when the 'facts' propping it up are false or misleading.

 

[Generator]

Simplistic statements and edits can be ever so fun at times.

The da vinci code is a work of fiction - people like a conspiracy theory, even when the 'facts' propping it up are false or misleading.

to

The [bible] is a work of fiction - people like a conspiracy theory, even when the 'facts' propping it up are false or misleading.

One may have the weight of years of faith, practice and study behind it, that isn't to say that it's any more correct than the other.

 

[malkin86]

haha.

 

[davin]

The da vinci code is a work of fiction - people like a conspiracy theory, even when the 'facts' propping it up are false or misleading.

yeah, but my arguement was against people saying something was too much like the da vinci code....implying that the da vinci code was an original concept.

 

[Not-That-Bright]

You want me to simplify several thousand years of debate and consideration for your own personal convenience? Now who is making excuses? If you really did want answers, you wouldn't demand that others present them - you'd find them for yourself.

You missed a part of my post (I believe). As I pointed out earlier, that is an incredibly hypocritical response... it's not like you've read all of the theology of every single religion, so why should I have to read every faceat of your religion in order to be qualified to make a judgement? I'll listen to your arguments when they are presented to me and from time to time I will do a bit of searching for myself - I am not going to be sent on some wild goose chase for the purpose of silencing all argument.

 

[erin_tonkin]

the da vinci code was written AS fiction that was its purpose. it was not meant to be taken as entire fact.

the bible however was written as fact. A recording of events. Not fiction

 

[Not-That-Bright]

2. Is doing such a thing fundamentally selfish, since it would be in human interest to do so?

My personal take on this is that it's obvious we're selfish... it's impossible to do an act which you do not want to do, unless something else is forcing that action and there is no other option.