hurrotisrobbo
Cabbage
Some of us are dying to know.
Watakushi humbly requests the presence of Takuya-dono, but only if he feels like it course.
-
Finished your HSC? Check out our University Discussion, Non-School forums or help out next year's HSC students! -
YOU can help the next generation of students in the community! Share your trial papers and notes on our Notes & Resources page
At the feet of the Master... (1 Viewer)
- Thread starter hurrotisrobbo
- Start date
Watakushi humbly requests the presence of Takuya-dono, but only if he feels like it course.
Lexicographer
Retired 13 May 2006
Hahaha
We did this in class, I'm surprised you all didn't. It's not really explained in the textbook, though Masumi Sorrell has a stab at it. I'll let Takuya take this though, because I'm bound to get it wrong.
We did this in class, I'm surprised you all didn't. It's not really explained in the textbook, though Masumi Sorrell has a stab at it. I'll let Takuya take this though, because I'm bound to get it wrong.
hurrotisrobbo
Cabbage
*Bump*
Hellooooo...? *Lonely* -_-
Hellooooo...? *Lonely* -_-
Lexicographer
Retired 13 May 2006
Hmm...send him a PM, he probably just hasn't noticed this thread.
Posted by mercury, in The Thread That Shall Not Be Named:
no de: is identical to and replaceable with kara when used in the capacity of 'because'. no de is mostly a formal or written structure, whereas kara is widely used in speech and informal writing. Generally, plain form precedes no de/kara, but especially for no de, -masu/desu can occur before it in formal speech.
ba.
To be technical, -ba is rather complicated. The verb with -ba indicates a hypothetical situation. The second part is, of course, the expected outcome.
yasukereba, ureru If it's cheap, it will sell.
However, it is not possible to use it when both the verb with -ba and the outcome are controllable by the speaker. Hence:
kamera o kaeba, kashite ageru is not a possible sentence.
nara.
nara is actually the -ba form of da (desu). The meaning is essentially 'if it is the case': a book I have explains it as 'I don't really know, but if what you're saying is right...'
-tara.
My teacher says -tara is better to use, because although it sounds less formal than -ba, there are no restrictions on controllability etc as above. However, were you writing something formal (in a real-life situation, perhaps) you would not use it, as it's got a kind of colloquial sound to it.
no ni.
Meaning, of course, 'even though', 'though', 'despite'. When you join a clause ending in desu with no ni ('even though it is...'), it becomes 'na no ni'.
A popular use of 'no ni' is to express disappointment. How? The second clause implying 'something was done' is ellipsed (left off)
yaranakute mo ii no ni...
(Such a pity that we did), even though we didn't even have to do it.
Well that's all I know about those structures. I hope someone can correct my knowledge of them, but in the meantime
I'll give it a try. Where necessary, please correct.
no de: is identical to and replaceable with kara when used in the capacity of 'because'. no de is mostly a formal or written structure, whereas kara is widely used in speech and informal writing. Generally, plain form precedes no de/kara, but especially for no de, -masu/desu can occur before it in formal speech.
ba.
To be technical, -ba is rather complicated. The verb with -ba indicates a hypothetical situation. The second part is, of course, the expected outcome.
yasukereba, ureru If it's cheap, it will sell.
However, it is not possible to use it when both the verb with -ba and the outcome are controllable by the speaker. Hence:
kamera o kaeba, kashite ageru is not a possible sentence.
nara.
nara is actually the -ba form of da (desu). The meaning is essentially 'if it is the case': a book I have explains it as 'I don't really know, but if what you're saying is right...'
-tara.
My teacher says -tara is better to use, because although it sounds less formal than -ba, there are no restrictions on controllability etc as above. However, were you writing something formal (in a real-life situation, perhaps) you would not use it, as it's got a kind of colloquial sound to it.
no ni.
Meaning, of course, 'even though', 'though', 'despite'. When you join a clause ending in desu with no ni ('even though it is...'), it becomes 'na no ni'.
A popular use of 'no ni' is to express disappointment. How? The second clause implying 'something was done' is ellipsed (left off)
yaranakute mo ii no ni...
(Such a pity that we did), even though we didn't even have to do it.
Well that's all I know about those structures. I hope someone can correct my knowledge of them, but in the meantime
Yeah, my teacher covered it, except I want to know about it in a bit more detail I'll have an attempt at it after some research and help:
THE USAGE OF "NODE" AND "KARA"
I believe "node" to be a bit more formal than "kara". And "node" has more of the implication that the consequence naturally follows the reason, and that the acton following the reason shouldn't usually be too commanding.
eg. shizukananode, yoku benkyou dekimasu.
comment: it naturally would be easy to study if it is quiet
eg. atsui desukara, umi ni ikimashou.
it's hot so let's go to the beach - this lacks that more conditional nature of the first example... and it's more commanding. So probably better to use kara in this instance
But sometimes it doesn't make THAT much of a difference. See below:
(1) nanimo shinakkata kara, totemo kanashii kimochi ga suru.
(2) nanimo shinakatta node, kanashii kimochi ga suru.
These two sentences mean the same thing, the second one sounds slightly more formal.
THE USAGE OF "IF"
TO
the consequence after "to" is often a natural consequence of the preceding event.
eg. kore wo taberu to futorimasu.
if you eat this, you'll put on weight.
TARA
This is used more in conversations and the condition should be satisfied before the following part can occur. And it has the meaning of "when" at times as well.
Eg. sotsugyoushitara bengoshi ni narimasu.
once i have graduated i'll be a solicitor.
"...BA"
This is the TRULY conditional form in the sense that it can only be expressed in English by the word "if" and the condition must be absolutely fulfilled before the following part can occur.
Eg. kuruma ga areba benri deshou.
It would be handy if we had a car.
NARA
Nara is used if you have a hypothetical condition:
eg. hontou ni guai ga warui nara, gakkou wo yasundemoii.
If you really are sick, you can stay home from school.
I believe the differences are quite subtle. There are a few expressions in Chinese that are translated into English as "if", and I can't tell the subtle differences (people who know Chinese would probably realise...) so this is probably the same situation. I'm not sure if the above helps, but I guess the more we use Japanese, the better understanding we'll gain of its grammatical structures.
USAGE of NONI
"Noni" has the implication that even though..., yet... . If it is used at the end of the sentence, it expresses feelings of regret and pity. If it's used in the middle of sentences, it has the implication of not satisfied, not pleased... these sort of feelings. It is used commonly in conversations apparently.
eg. shittieru noni, shiranai to iimashita.
Even though he knows, yet he said he doesn't know.
I remember when I was learning English in China in Yr 3, we learnt the expression "Have you a pen?" and when I came to Australia, it became clear that no one says that in reality, although it's grammatically correct. We all say "Do you have a pen?" or "Have you got a pen?" So really, subtle differences in grammar is hard to grasp unless you use the language often and you spent some time in the environment in which the language is commonly spoken.
Takuya san, if you are still around, feel free to comment on any mistakes I have made in my attempt to explain.
I'll have an attempt at it after some research and help:THE USAGE OF "NODE" AND "KARA"
I believe "node" to be a bit more formal than "kara". And "node" has more of the implication that the consequence naturally follows the reason, and that the acton following the reason shouldn't usually be too commanding.
eg. shizukananode, yoku benkyou dekimasu.
comment: it naturally would be easy to study if it is quiet
eg. atsui desukara, umi ni ikimashou.
it's hot so let's go to the beach - this lacks that more conditional nature of the first example... and it's more commanding. So probably better to use kara in this instance
But sometimes it doesn't make THAT much of a difference. See below:
(1) nanimo shinakkata kara, totemo kanashii kimochi ga suru.
(2) nanimo shinakatta node, kanashii kimochi ga suru.
These two sentences mean the same thing, the second one sounds slightly more formal.
THE USAGE OF "IF"
TO
the consequence after "to" is often a natural consequence of the preceding event.
eg. kore wo taberu to futorimasu.
if you eat this, you'll put on weight.
TARA
This is used more in conversations and the condition should be satisfied before the following part can occur. And it has the meaning of "when" at times as well.
Eg. sotsugyoushitara bengoshi ni narimasu.
once i have graduated i'll be a solicitor.
"...BA"
This is the TRULY conditional form in the sense that it can only be expressed in English by the word "if" and the condition must be absolutely fulfilled before the following part can occur.
Eg. kuruma ga areba benri deshou.
It would be handy if we had a car.
NARA
Nara is used if you have a hypothetical condition:
eg. hontou ni guai ga warui nara, gakkou wo yasundemoii.
If you really are sick, you can stay home from school.
I believe the differences are quite subtle. There are a few expressions in Chinese that are translated into English as "if", and I can't tell the subtle differences (people who know Chinese would probably realise...) so this is probably the same situation. I'm not sure if the above helps, but I guess the more we use Japanese, the better understanding we'll gain of its grammatical structures.
USAGE of NONI
"Noni" has the implication that even though..., yet... . If it is used at the end of the sentence, it expresses feelings of regret and pity. If it's used in the middle of sentences, it has the implication of not satisfied, not pleased... these sort of feelings. It is used commonly in conversations apparently.
eg. shittieru noni, shiranai to iimashita.
Even though he knows, yet he said he doesn't know.
I remember when I was learning English in China in Yr 3, we learnt the expression "Have you a pen?" and when I came to Australia, it became clear that no one says that in reality, although it's grammatically correct. We all say "Do you have a pen?" or "Have you got a pen?" So really, subtle differences in grammar is hard to grasp unless you use the language often and you spent some time in the environment in which the language is commonly spoken.
Takuya san, if you are still around, feel free to comment on any mistakes I have made in my attempt to explain.
Takuya
Banned
Those are OK explanation
As I see with 99% of Japanese students, direct English -> Japanese translations are sought. If you are to take this path I suggest that you think of ̂ as meaning 'despite'
For example:
̃J͔ɍ̂ɁAɉĂ܂B
Despite this camera being expensive, it broke immediately.
As mercury has a outlined, there are subtleties unclear to students who are trying to learn the language. This is why I often laugh to myself when I read people in other forums adding ȁAA to the end of 'plain form' sentences, when there are actually certain 'poetic' reasons for doing so in cases which come naturally to the native speaker.
I was to wait until I saw my friend to discover how I might express these subtleties in English but he is yet to complete his exams... We have still not met. He does Beginners' Course
I did not do so prior to this occassion as I was under the impression that mercury, being the sole individual who wanted to know, had read an explanation in a Chinese textbook.
As I see with 99% of Japanese students, direct English -> Japanese translations are sought. If you are to take this path I suggest that you think of ̂ as meaning 'despite'
For example:
̃J͔ɍ̂ɁAɉĂ܂B
Despite this camera being expensive, it broke immediately.
As mercury has a outlined, there are subtleties unclear to students who are trying to learn the language. This is why I often laugh to myself when I read people in other forums adding ȁAA to the end of 'plain form' sentences, when there are actually certain 'poetic' reasons for doing so in cases which come naturally to the native speaker.
I was to wait until I saw my friend to discover how I might express these subtleties in English but he is yet to complete his exams... We have still not met. He does Beginners' Course
I did not do so prior to this occassion as I was under the impression that mercury, being the sole individual who wanted to know, had read an explanation in a Chinese textbook.
Haha.... sorry about that Takuya. Books help, but never as much as explanations from native Japanese speakers.
Oh dear, in this case I should apologise to everyone
*BOW* gomen nasai
Thanks for all your advices Takuya
Oh dear, in this case I should apologise to everyone
*BOW* gomen nasai
Thanks for all your advices Takuya
Takuya
Banned
Hold on for my full explanation after I consult my native-English speaking friend.
hurrotisrobbo
Cabbage
Umm, hello again.
Usually I don't resort to Year 7-ish "How do I say xyz-english-slang-etc?" requests, but how would you go about saying, 'It makes one <action here>'.
Eg. 'It makes one jump for joy,' etc.
Just a side-question, if you will: is there no equivalent of the English 'one' (when applied to a person)? The only way I can think of doing it is by leaving off the usual 'watashi wa', etc, but I think that ends up implying that the speaker is the subject anyway.
Sankyuu beri machu,
Rob
Usually I don't resort to Year 7-ish "How do I say xyz-english-slang-etc?" requests, but how would you go about saying, 'It makes one <action here>'.
Eg. 'It makes one jump for joy,' etc.
Just a side-question, if you will: is there no equivalent of the English 'one' (when applied to a person)? The only way I can think of doing it is by leaving off the usual 'watashi wa', etc, but I think that ends up implying that the speaker is the subject anyway.
Sankyuu beri machu,
Rob
Lexicographer
Retired 13 May 2006
Use the causitive ~aseru form.
Example: I made him fall
fall: korobu
--> korobaseru (causitive)
--> korobasemashita (past causitive)
I may be wrong about the construction (memory again), but it's definitely the causitive which you seek.
I highly recommend the book "Japanese Verbs at a Glance", formerly of the Kodansha Power Japanese series. It is concise yet detailed, and explains use and construction of grammatical devices exceptionally well.
Example: I made him fall
fall: korobu
--> korobaseru (causitive)
--> korobasemashita (past causitive)
I may be wrong about the construction (memory again), but it's definitely the causitive which you seek.
I highly recommend the book "Japanese Verbs at a Glance", formerly of the Kodansha Power Japanese series. It is concise yet detailed, and explains use and construction of grammatical devices exceptionally well.
hurrotisrobbo
Cabbage
Umm... I've caught myself saying the following on the odd occasion...
Would I sound like a complete gyet if I said [Yosh'] or [Yoshaa]? Or [Yatta!]?
Apologies, I watch far too much anime. Kick me in ze noggin' if needs be.
Would I sound like a complete gyet if I said [Yosh'] or [Yoshaa]? Or [Yatta!]?
Apologies, I watch far too much anime. Kick me in ze noggin' if needs be.
Lexicographer
Retired 13 May 2006
[yosh] isn't polite