Answers about Law (2 Viewers)

[1000words]

Hi everyone,

My name is David and I have recently discovered about this forum! I have completed a combined science/law degree at Monash University.

Throughout my studies, I also enjoyed being a year 12 tutor to many students! In the next few days, I will try going through this particular forum to help out as much as I can. If you have a few question to direct at me, please feel free to ask and I will do my best to help you out with information! If I can't help you, I'll be sure to ask people who will know.

Best of luck particularly to those who wish to pursue studies in law.

Regards,
David

 

[Minai]

Ah good, a Law graduate as a primary source for students questions.

Welcome

 

[1000words]

Thanks for the welcome! Please feel free to post questions or to contact me privately. I'll do my best to help.

 

[clancy04]

David or others, I am hoping to go to USYD or UNSW to do com/law in 2005. I have worked out that I will just [just] miss out on usyd with ACCESS, and probably get into UNSW, if the 2004 ACCESS cut-off does not rise more than .25. I am also considering paying full-fee for the first year and then transferring into HECS after 1 year. My other option is to go into plain commerce and then transfer into law. Which would you advise would be easiest: transfer from straight com or from com/law [into com/law HECS]? I know it might seem obvious as the former has a smaller workload, however one important factor to take into account is that if you were doing com/law you would be socialising with a very dedicated, if elitist, group of people. Whereas in pure com, there might be a lackadaisical inclination?

 

[1000words]

My other option is to go into plain commerce and then transfer into law. Which would you advise would be easiest: transfer from straight com or from com/law [into com/law HECS]? I know it might seem obvious as the former has a smaller workload, however one important factor to take into account is that if you were doing com/law you would be socialising with a very dedicated, if elitist, group of people. Whereas in pure com, there might be a lackadaisical inclination?

Congratulations on your year 12 results!

You do have a point about the socialising aspect although whether you interact with a 'very dedicated, if elitist, group of people' is up to you. The Law faculty is made up of a whole range of people, many of which are very down to earth. However, the point I do see is that you might find that your timetable will be similar to other straight commerce students (or commerce/non-law combined degrees) whereas other com/law students in first year will be bunched close together i.e. first year law students generally have the same number of first year law subjects and I imagine that this is pretty similar to first year law subjects.

However, there's nothing wrong with taking the opportunity to meet different people in the commerce faculty! Remember, you'll be stuck with these law students for longer! University is a great life experience and those who meet a large range of people tend to find it the most rewarding.

You will need to do more research to determine the minimum requirements for a transfer into law from another faculty, or transferring into a HECs course - I would expect that this varies within law faculties.

Best of luck! And again, congratulations!

 

[Lainee]

Yay a graduated law person!

I've got a couple of questions, if you don't mind. How are you finding the current job market for new graduates? Are you still in Melbourne (I -think- that's where Monash is? ) and if so, is your degree usable in NSW? Or if I get a law degree here, would I be able to go interstate with it?

 

[1000words]

Yay a graduated law person!

I've got a couple of questions, if you don't mind. How are you finding the current job market for new graduates? Are you still in Melbourne (I -think- that's where Monash is? ) and if so, is your degree usable in NSW? Or if I get a law degree here, would I be able to go interstate with it?

Hi Lainee! Congratulations on your year 12 results!

Are you referring to graduate positions in law firms? If so, I do not believe the current job market should be too much of a concern for you as it's quite cyclic and something that you will need to think about more seriously in four or so years time. That said, it's always best to prep yourself up for any conditions to ensure you get a job in any economic climate.

To answer your question, however, I have found that the current job market has picked up immensely since two years ago. It was crazy back in 2002 when so many undergrads missed out on position. However, I cannot think of a single person who remains jobless by now. Again, whether the climate is great or dismal, those who are determined still do very well - even during great times, there will still be many who miss out altogether in places.

As for being able to practice interstate, there is a strong move to nationalising the profession in terms of qualifications etc. I expect this to be in full swing well before you finish your law degree. At the moment, it's not so much where you do your undergraduate law course that is important, it's where you get admitted i.e. if you do Articles in Melbourne (whether you previously came from Sydney or Melbourne), you can practice here. Same goes if I had gone to Sydney. That said, I don't think it's too much of an obstacle to practice interstate etc you might have to do some formal things but it's nothing compared to qualifying in other countries such as the US (which has a different system).

I hope that makes sense! Let me know if you would like further information. Congratulations again!

Regards,
David

 

[clancy04]

Wow David, you made me feel better about my results than my family did, thanks!
New question: I have spoken to various admissions advisers from both USYD and USYD, and now I am just trying to discern what is the likelihood of being able to attain a distincton GPA. How hard is it to achieve distinction and what percentage of first year com/law [NOT pure com] students acheive it? 20%? Effects of bell curve?

Furthermore, can you [or anyone else who has past UAC guides etc] tell me what the increases in full-fee commerce/law cut-offs have been like over the past 2/3 years.

Lastly, do you expect the number of full-fee paying students to escalate markedly with the introduction of the FEE-HELP scheme. If yes, could the com/law cut-off at USYD reasonably jump from 96.75 in 2004 to 98.x in 2005?

 

[Lazarus]

New question: I have spoken to various admissions advisers from both USYD and USYD, and now I am just trying to discern what is the likelihood of being able to attain a distincton GPA. How hard is it to achieve distinction and what percentage of first year com/law [NOT pure com] students acheive it? 20%? Effects of bell curve?

See this thread for a table setting out the distributions of grades for several UNSW law courses in 2003.

I imagine it would be easier to obtain distinctions in non-law courses.

 

[1000words]

Wow David, you made me feel better about my results than my family did, thanks!

Great! And rest assured that I'm not kidding or trying to make you delusional - I hope that having past experience (and people I know with their own experiences) gives my advice/information some creditability.

You should also stay positive! Be proud of your achievements or you will look back in a few years time and go 'wow, I wish I was happier with myself'.

I have spoken to various admissions advisers from both USYD and USYD, and now I am just trying to discern what is the likelihood of being able to attain a distincton GPA. How hard is it to achieve distinction and what percentage of first year com/law [NOT pure com] students acheive it? 20%? Effects of bell curve?

Furthermore, can you [or anyone else who has past UAC guides etc] tell me what the increases in full-fee commerce/law cut-offs have been like over the past 2/3 years.

Lastly, do you expect the number of full-fee paying students to escalate markedly with the introduction of the FEE-HELP scheme. If yes, could the com/law cut-off at USYD reasonably jump from 96.75 in 2004 to 98.x in 2005?

Lazarus' advice above is probably best as I'm probably not in the best position to give advice on such specifics. I also can't speculate or give advice on the full-fee paying places because I went through HECs/FEE-HELP throughout my entire course. All I say is that, perhaps, it's out of your hands now so just go with it and put in your preferences regardless.

Generally, it's harder to get higher marks in the law faculty because of their own policies (i.e. 5% High Distinctions, 15% Distinctions etc) and their assessment is very subjective. That said, it's easier to achieve honours at the end of the course (whereas in other faculties, the minimum mark is a lot higher). It balances out in the end. However, if you're referring to getting high marks in a non-law faculty to transfer into law, it 'should' be easier to get higher marks than getting high marks in law at another university to transfer into the university of your choice.

I hope my reasoning makes sense

 

[omg_a]

ooh, v. exciting, a law graduate! I was just wondering what you are doing now, after graduating? ie are you working in a law firm, legal aid, or for a company, or government or anything else? About how many people do you think from your year did not go into a law firm but went into other forms of employment?

 

[1000words]

ooh, v. exciting, a law graduate! I was just wondering what you are doing now, after graduating? ie are you working in a law firm, legal aid, or for a company, or government or anything else? About how many people do you think from your year did not go into a law firm but went into other forms of employment?

Hi there! Great to hear from you.

I will start working in a law firm in 2005. A lot of people I know have taken or are taking a similar path although having just spent a moment calculating, around half of the law graduates I know are pursuing a career in the law (including government departments as well as the private sector).

The majority of the other half are or have entered graduate programs that relate to their commerce degree i.e. at major accounting firms, investment banks, management consulting etc. I imagine that you'll find a similar split; and you'll also find that pursuing a degree outside of law (despite doing a law degree) is not a waste (it's extremely positive and gives you that edge in employment) and is not a step-down from the legal profession!

I hope that helps!

 

[clancy04]

hey all, can anybody recommend a good, very general publication that I would find at almost any uni library, covering the basics of law. Hmm, I can't believe I just wrote that -sounds so stupid, but hopefully you get my drift. Am just wanting to read something general now. I should just email a law faculty.
Another question: people always say how considerable the reading load is for law and indeed this appeals to me greatly as I love reading vast amounts and especially under pressure. Though how, massive, is this reading load? And can you give me any other advice on how to tackle it.

 

[1000words]

hey all, can anybody recommend a good, very general publication that I would find at almost any uni library, covering the basics of law. Hmm, I can't believe I just wrote that -sounds so stupid, but hopefully you get my drift. Am just wanting to read something general now. I should just email a law faculty.
Another question: people always say how considerable the reading load is for law and indeed this appeals to me greatly as I love reading vast amounts and especially under pressure. Though how, massive, is this reading load? And can you give me any other advice on how to tackle it.

A book that is prescribed to first year law students (based on the law graduates and students I've just asked) to introduce students to the law is called 'Laying Down the Law'.

As for the reading load, I honestly found the reading load for my science subjects to be a lot more demanding. Particularly in the first years, reading for science was very specific and required memorising a lot of factual information. In contrast, reading law cases/text is very much about understanding the legal concepts. This is reflected in the fact that my science exams were closed book and law exams open book.

The reading load for law is manageable. You just do your best to keep up to date by staying organised. Take comfort from the fact that hundreds and hundreds of people go through law school every year and they finish smiling! I think it's about whether you're interested in the subject or not.

I hope that helps!

 

[wizard]

Hi David
I was so glad to find you on here. My daughter has just finished her HSC and receieved 99.95. We knew she'd do well but were astounded with this result. We live in northern NSW and had planned on her going to UQ - thought she'd start arts and then try to change to Arts/Law. Now she can go anywhere and do anything and we are a bit overwhlemed with decisions to make. Her other interest is Political Science. I know you did Com/Law and she is a bit concerned about job prospects in the Arts/Law area. Do you have any advice about which dual degree? She would really like to go into Foreign Affairs (has always dreamt of working for the UN!) but we are a little worried about jobs. As well she will have to live away from home. Probably on campus. We are not poor but not wealthy either. Do you know of any scholarships etc available? We think we earn too much for the Comm., UQ Excellence or Go8 which they offer at UQ. I rang the scholarships office at UQ and they said that all of these are mainly awarded on the basis of financial hardship.
Thanks

 

[claudia_p]

Congrats to your daughter, that's an amazing UAI!
(I know you weren't asking me, but I know a bit which may help you)
Did you particularly want to go to UQ?
Because Sydney Uni has a very good reputation for law, and If you go to Sydney with a uai of 99.95, you'll get a $5000 scholarship for the first year automatically. i think sydney uni also has a very good political science course, which is considered superior to most other political science courses because it is taught by their economics and business faculty, not the Arts faculty as in most other universities. Macquarie uni i think will give you $2500 a year for the length of your degree. ANU in Canberra also has a good political science course (being in Canberra, you'd expect it to!) and its law degrees are supposedly very strong in international law, as well as being recognised well internationally.
You can also combine your law degree with international studies. UNSW has a really good international studies course where you can specialise in European Studies, Asian Studies, Languages or Global Studies. I know a graduate of this course who now works for the UN (he didn't even combine with law), and the law degree has a very good reputation, so it would definitely be worth considering.

You should check out the universities' websites for more information concerning scholarships. Unfortunately, many of the application dates have probably already closed, but you may be lucky. If not, ring up the universities and tell them your daughter got 99.95 and wants to study there- I'm sure they'll be more than willing to help you manage to study at their university!!

Hope I helped, best of luck!

 

[wizard]

Thanks Claudia
Do you know if this money continues after 1st year? Don't want to sacrifice proximity to home, many relatives in Brisbane, current boyfriend at GC etc for only one year's support. Also do you know anything about girls colleges at Syd? Have looked at website but personal experience often gives a better picture.
Thanks

 

[1000words]

Hi David
I was so glad to find you on here. My daughter has just finished her HSC and receieved 99.95. We knew she'd do well but were astounded with this result. We live in northern NSW and had planned on her going to UQ - thought she'd start arts and then try to change to Arts/Law. Now she can go anywhere and do anything and we are a bit overwhlemed with decisions to make. Her other interest is Political Science. I know you did Com/Law and she is a bit concerned about job prospects in the Arts/Law area. Do you have any advice about which dual degree? She would really like to go into Foreign Affairs (has always dreamt of working for the UN!) but we are a little worried about jobs. As well she will have to live away from home. Probably on campus. We are not poor but not wealthy either. Do you know of any scholarships etc available? We think we earn too much for the Comm., UQ Excellence or Go8 which they offer at UQ. I rang the scholarships office at UQ and they said that all of these are mainly awarded on the basis of financial hardship.
Thanks

Congratulations on your daughter's result! I am sure that your postive support as parents helped immensely - this is often the case I see with students who do well.

It seems that Claudia has given excellent advice particularly in relation to the different universities in your area, advice about political sciences and the scholarship opportunities that are available. From what I understand, the scholarships should usually cover the entire degree.

I am not quite sure where your concern about employment prospects with arts/law v comm/law lie. As a student of high calibre, this is a strong indication that she has the potential to keep doing well - this will open many doors as there are always fantastic employment opportunities for those who excel.

Do you mean with a career in law? I really believe she will have no problems whatsoever in getting a job and firm of her choice if she continues to perform. I strongly believe that it does make too much of a difference whether she does arts or commerce. I think the concern about employment in regard to 'arts' stems from those who do a straight arts degree. An arts/law degree may only restrict her from getting employment at jobs in the commerce field, obviously

As for UN work, I am not sure whether it is a position that you can get into straight away (even though you can get a UN internship etc). That said, she would be advised to build her profile as soon as possible since UN positions are highly competitive - her arts degree can help tremendously with that: she can study the political sciences and international affairs. In addition to Claudia's advice, your daughter can also take the opportunity to learn languages (particularly french).

Finally, try not to be too 'overwhelmed' with your decision. I understand that it will be a significant commitment in terms of moving etc but be sure to take your time.

Best of luck, and again, congratulations! Feel free to post more questions if you would like more information.

Regards,
David

 

[mr EaZy]

i got some links which can help wizard out (regarding opportunities on the international field) does anyone know how to put up one of them "important" threads that stay up forever -so next year's people can look at them??

my uai is not as good as wizard's daughter 97.90, but i still have the same aspirations at the UN, DFAT or other places. I was thinking of doing advanced arts @usyd and then transfering to arts/law at Usyd (after 1 year) . Does anybody think this is a stupid/risky idea???? Because i dont wanna do a single LLb at UTS. If i dont get into combined law i wanna do arts.

REason?: well this history/english teacher joined out school this year, he was one of the top law grads students at UTS recently and well, i dunno why he's here! so if it aint law combined, then i dunno what to do

 

[1000words]

my uai is not as good as wizard's daughter 97.90, but i still have the same aspirations at the UN, DFAT or other places. I was thinking of doing advanced arts @usyd and then transfering to arts/law at Usyd (after 1 year) . Does anybody think this is a stupid/risky idea???? Because i dont wanna do a single LLb at UTS. If i dont get into combined law i wanna do arts.

Is it possible to combine law with "advanced" arts? If not, you may choose to select the "basic" arts program. This may not sound as glamourous to your friends but you are more likely to do well in your first year (arguably, the subjects are easier and you're competing against 'lower ranked' students) - and this may be your top objective. If you can't combine "advanced" arts, then you would be transferred back to the "standard" arts anyway if you were to successfully get into law.

I hope that helps.