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Aganist abortion (4 Viewers)

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"I have done several abortions on women who have regularly picketed my clinics, including a 16 year old schoolgirl who came back to picket the day after her abortion, about three years ago. During her whole stay at the clinic, we felt that she was not quite right, but there were no real warning bells. She insisted that the abortion was her idea and assured us that all was OK. She went through the procedure very smoothly and was discharged with no problems. A quite routine operation. Next morning she was with her mother and several school mates in front of the clinic with the usual anti posters and chants. It appears that she got the abortion she needed and still displayed the appropriate anti views expected of her by her parents, teachers, and peers." (Physician, Australia)

"I've had several cases over the years in which the anti-abortion patient had rationalized in one way or another that her case was the only exception, but the one that really made an impression was the college senior who was the president of her campus Right-to-Life organization, meaning that she had worked very hard in that organization for several years. As I was completing her procedure, I asked what she planned to do about her high office in the RTL organization. Her response was a wide-eyed, 'You're not going to tell them, are you!?' When assured that I was not, she breathed a sigh of relief, explaining how important that position was to her and how she wouldn't want this to interfere with it." (Physician, Texas)

"In 1990, in the Boston area, Operation Rescue and other groups were regularly blockading the clinics, and many of us went every Saturday morning for months to help women and staff get in. As a result, we knew many of the 'antis' by face. One morning, a woman who had been a regular 'sidewalk counselor' went into the clinic with a young woman who looked like she was 16-17, and obviously her daughter. When the mother came out about an hour later, I had to go up and ask her if her daughter's situation had caused her to change her mind. 'I don't expect you to understand my daughter's situation!' she angrily replied. The following Saturday, she was back, pleading with women entering the clinic not to 'murder their babies.'" (Clinic escort, Massachusetts)

"We too have seen our share of anti-choice women, ones the counselors usually grit their teeth over. Just last week a woman announced loudly enough for all to hear in the recovery room, that she thought abortion should be illegal. Amazingly, this was her second abortion within the last few months, having gotten pregnant again within a month of the first abortion. The nurse handled it by talking about all the carnage that went on before abortion was legalized and how fortunate she was to be receiving safe, professional care. However, this young woman continued to insist it was wrong and should be made illegal. Finally the nurse said, 'Well, I guess we won't be seeing you here again, not that you're not welcome.' Later on, another patient who had overheard this exchange thanked the nurse for her remarks." (Clinic Administrator, Alberta)

"We saw a woman recently who after four attempts and many hours of counseling both at the hospital and our clinic, finally, calmly and uneventfully, had her abortion. Four months later, she called me on Christmas Eve to tell me that she was not and never was pro-choice and that we failed to recognize that she was clinically depressed at the time of her abortion. The purpose of her call was to chastise me for not sending her off to the psych unit instead of the procedure room." (Clinic Administrator, Alberta)

"Recently, we had a patient who had given a history of being a 'pro-life' activist, but who had decided to have an abortion. She was pleasant to me and our initial discussion was mutually respectful. Later, she told someone on my staff that she thought abortion is murder, that she is a murderer, and that she is murdering her baby. So before doing her procedure, I asked her if she thought abortion is murder -- the answer was yes. I asked her if she thought I am a murderer, and if she thought I would be murdering her baby, and she said yes. But murder is a crime, and murderers are executed. Is this a crime? Well, it should be, she said. At that point, she became angry and hostile, and the summary of the conversation was that she regarded me as an abortion-dispensing machine, and how dare I ask her what she thinks. After explaining to her that I do not perform abortions for people who think I am a murderer or people who are angry at me, I declined to provide her with medical care. I do not know whether she found someone else to do her abortion." (Physician, Colorado)

"In 1973, after Roe v. Wade, abortion became legal but had to be performed in a hospital. That of course was changed later. For the first 'legal abortion day' I had scheduled five procedures. While scrubbing between cases, I was accosted by the Chief of the OB/Gyn service. He asked me, 'How many children are you going to kill today?' My response, out of anger, was a familiar vulgar retort. About three months later, this born-again Christian called me to explain that he was against abortion but his daughter was only a junior in high school and was too young to have a baby and he was also afraid that if she did have a baby she would not want to put it up for adoption. I told him he did not need to explain the situation to me. 'All I need to know', I said, 'is that SHE wants an abortion.' Two years later I performed a second abortion on her during her college break. She thanked me and pleaded, 'Please don't tell my dad, he is still anti-abortion.'" (Physician, Washington State)

"The sister of a Dutch bishop in Limburg once visited the abortion clinic in Beek where I used to work in the seventies. After entering the full waiting room she said to me, 'My dear Lord, what are all those young girls doing here?' 'Same as you', I replied. 'Dirty little dames,' she said." (Physician, The Netherlands)

"I had a patient about ten years ago who traveled up to New York City from South Carolina for an abortion. I asked her why she went such a long way to get the procedure. Her answer was that she was a member of a church group that didn't believe in abortion and she didn't want anyone to know she was having one. She planned to return to the group when she went back to South Carolina." (Physician, New York)

"I once had a German client who greatly thanked me at the door, leaving after a difficult 22-week abortion. With a gleaming smile, she added: 'Und doch sind Sie ein Mörderer.' ('And you're still a murderer.')" (Physician, The Netherlands)

"My first encounter with this phenomenon came when I was doing a 2-week follow-up at a family planning clinic. The woman's anti-choice values spoke indirectly through her expression and body language. She told me that she had been offended by the other women in the abortion clinic waiting room because they were using abortion as a form of birth control, but her condom had broken so she had no choice! I had real difficulty not pointing out that she did have a choice, and she had made it! Just like the other women in the waiting room." (Physician, Ontario)

"A 21 year old woman and her mother drove three hours to come to their appointment for an abortion. They were surprised to find the clinic a 'nice' place with friendly, personable staff. While going over contraceptive options, they shared that they were Pro-Life and disagreed with abortion, but that the patient could not afford to raise a child right now. Also, she wouldn't need contraception since she wasn't going to have sex until she got married, because of her religious beliefs. Rather than argue with them, I saw this as an opportunity for dialogue, and in the end, my hope was that I had planted a 'healing seed' to help resolve the conflict between their beliefs and their realities." (Physician, Washington State)

"I had a 37 year old woman just yesterday who was 13 weeks. She said she and her husband had been discussing this pregnancy for 2-3 months. She was strongly opposed to abortion, 'but my husband is forcing me to do it.' Naturally, I told her that no one could force her into an abortion, and that she had to choose whether the pregnancy or her husband were more important. I told her I only wanted what was best for her, and I would not do the abortion unless she agreed that it was in her best interest. Once she was faced with actually having to voice her own choice, she said 'Well, I made the appointment and I came here, so go ahead and do it. It's what's best.' At last I think she came to grips with the fact that it really was her decision after all." (Physician, Nevada)

"We have anti-choice women in for abortions all the time. Many of them are just naive and ignorant until they find themselves with an unwanted pregnancy. Many of them are not malicious. They just haven't given it the proper amount of thought until it completely affects them. They can be judgmental about their friends, family, and other women. Then suddenly they become pregnant. Suddenly they see the truth. That it should only be their own choice. Unfortunately, many also think that somehow they are different than everyone else and they deserve to have an abortion, while no one else does." (Physician, Washington State)


An administrator at a Missouri clinic recalled a woman blurting out in the recovery room, "It should be illegal." The other women's mouths fell open, said the administrator. "They couldn't believe it."

The medical director of an Indianapolis clinic recalled one prospective patient who phoned to ask whether the clinic had a back door. He said no. How, she asked, could she get inside without being seen by fellow picketers outside? Pointing out that two orthopedists practiced with him, the doctor told the woman "she could limp and say she was coming to see the orthopods."

The medical director at a Dallas abortion clinic told this story: A white woman from an affluent north Dallas neighborhood brought her black maid in for an abortion and paid for it. While the maid was in a counseling session, a commotion was heard in the waiting room outside. The maid's employer was handing out anti-abortion leaflets to other women waiting for abortions.

From a clinic director in a mid-western state: "One of the most remarkable cases was a woman who came [from another part of the state] and said she was the Right-to-Life president in her county. 'But,' she said, she 'had become pregnant and had to have an abortion.'"

From a counselor in Virginia: "[The patient] was disturbed and upset and insisted she couldn't carry the pregnancy to term. She opposed abortion -- and in fact had picketed this very clinic -- [but] felt the abortion was something she had to do."


"Early in my career, I thought I was obligated to provide an abortion for every woman who arrived at my doorstep requesting an abortion. My experience in general medicine, surgery, and abortion has led me to believe differently. Not inadvertently, women give either me or my staff an uneasy feeling about their ambivalence or their anxiety about the abortion process. Since I have never been sued for an abortion I did not perform, my policy is to acknowledge my gut feeling, which is more often right than wrong."

"I have long felt that anti-abortionism is a psychological contraindication to the abortion procedure. And that we don't have to give everyone who asks an abortion. An anti-abortion woman is likely to be uncooperative and will probably not follow post-op instructions or instructions on how to deal with complications. There is actually a case where an anti-abortion patient failed to go as directed to Emergency for an unrelated complication. She ended up dying, and her family sued the physician and badgered him publicly. Additionally, if you have a complication that day, it will be the anti-abortionist. I'm not talking about the patient who says, 'I was against abortion until it happened to me', or 'I'm really against abortion, but I have to do this'. I'm talking about the picketer, the activist, the totally anti-creature who will come back to haunt us."


"When a patient comes in with my 'favorite' sentiment: 'The only moral abortion is my abortion,' I try to expand her understanding that a few more of us have had and deserve a 'moral' abortion. When a woman expands her need for care beyond herself, you no longer have an 'anti'." (Clinic Administrator, Louisiana)

"Sometimes I say to patients who have that 'I have no choice, I know I'll regret it, just do me' attitude: 'You may not care, but we do. We only do abortions on women who want our services. We will not knowingly contribute to any possible trauma of any woman.' They seem surprised that we care how we do our work, but they also accept it." (Counselor, New York)


"I never dreamed, in my wildest nightmares, that there would ever be a situation where I personally would choose such an act. Of course, we would each like to think that our reasons for a termination are the exception to the rule. But the bottom line is that you people spend your lives, reputations, careers and energy fighting for, maintaining, and providing an option that I needed, while I spent my energy lambasting you. Yet you still allowed me to make use of your services even though I had been one of your enemies. You treated us as kindly and warmly as you did all of your patients and never once pointed an 'I told you so' finger in our direction. I got the impression that you cared equally about each woman in the facility and what each woman was going through, regardless of her reasons for choosing the procedure. I have never met a group of purely non-judgmental people like yourselves."


"I was born into a very Catholic family, and was politically pro-life during college. After dating my first real boyfriend for three years, we broke up, and the day my boyfriend moved out, I discovered I was pregnant. It was an agonizing decision, and something I never thought I would do, but I decided an abortion was the only realistic option. Thanks to Planned Parenthood counseling, I worked through some very tough conflicts within myself. I had to learn that my decision was a loving one. That 'my god' was actually a loving and supportive god. And that men don't have to make this decision, only women do. That it is a very personal, individual decision. I had to own it. I became much more compassionate towards myself and others as a result of my experience. Two years later I began medical school. When it came time to choose a practice, an abortion clinic opportunity came up. In working there, I began to feel that this was my calling. Having been in my patients' shoes, and coming from an unforgiving background, I could honestly say to patients, 'I know how you feel.' Deciding to have an abortion was THE hardest decision I've ever made in my life. Yet it has brought me the greatest transformation, fulfillment, and now joy. I am a more loving person because of it, and a better doctor for having experienced it. I love the work that I do, and the opportunity to support women seeking to end an unwanted pregnancy. My patients and my work are life's gifts to me, and I think my compassion and support are my gifts in return."

I have read these quotes, most of them are cases of pro-life people having abortions or pro-life people voicing out their opinions at an abortion clinic.
yet i can not find reason in any of these quotes that prove why abortion is right, that prove they are not killing a human being. i have taken them into consideration but still i can not find any reason.
It breaks my heart to read all of these cases where people have killed their own child.
But even if abortion is going on, even if some pro-life people go astray and have abortions and even if people think its right.
I firmly believe it is morally, ethically, scientifically and all together wrong and i will continue fighting against it.
 

Cabenson

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ix3powerrangers said:
I just think that abortion is completely WRONG its MURDER and we all need to face the truth.
Let me question your wording.

Killing is different to murdering. You kill germs, weeds, bugs, animals. Murdering is the intentional kill of innocent human life which is a person.

A foetus is killed intentionally. It is genetically human, of no other species. Whether it is "innocent" or not is not relevant as it wouldn't be the foetus' conscious decision to endanger the mother. To be a person is to be conscious, self aware and have memory. A foetus does not have these, and as long as its life is dependent on the mother's then it is her decision to veto it, as the stronger life force can allow or not allow the parasite to live.
Thus there is no ethical problem posed in terminating/killing a pregnancy.
It is not murder.
 

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ix3powerrangers said:
I firmly believe it is morally, ethically, scientifically and all together wrong and i will continue fighting against it.
Morality. Ethics. One must be disregarded to conform to the other, they cannot coexist. jks let's not get all philosophical

Morality is YOUR preoccupation with the distinction between good and bad. It is what drives your actions so you can sleep at night.
Ethics are public, social judgements regarding the members of a community. As such, what can be determined as a moral judgement may be entirely different to that of an ethical one.

edit: Scientifically wrong? All together wrong? Could you clarify?
 
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Let me question your wording.

Killing is different to murdering. You kill germs, weeds, bugs, animals. Murdering is the intentional kill of innocent human life which is a person.

A foetus is killed intentionally. It is genetically human, of no other species. Whether it is "innocent" or not is not relevant as it wouldn't be the foetus' conscious decision to endanger the mother. To be a person is to be conscious, self aware and have memory. A foetus does not have these, and as long as its life is dependent on the mother's then it is her decision to veto it, as the stronger life force can allow or not allow the parasite to live.
Thus there is no ethical problem posed in terminating/killing a pregnancy.
It is not murder.
Sorry, allow me to reword my previous statement
It is morally wrong to murder a child whilst it is in its mothers womb

Okay if you define a person to be "conscious, self aware and have memory" what would you define a person in a coma to be? they are unconscious, nor are they self aware and i doubt they have any memory of that situation.
Then would it be alright to murder someone in a coma? even with the many cases of people coming out of a coma?

If you consider a foetus to be a "parasite", wouldn't that make you once a "parasite" once?
In biology we were taught that "parisitism" is where one is benifited and the other is harmed. Parisitism is where one is deprived of something whether it is food, shelter etc. A baby in the mother's womb does not deprive the mother of anything. With food, when a mother is pregnant the body produces extra nutrients just for the baby. Therefore it is not parasitism.

Wouldn't an abortion be kind of like "parisitism" where the mother is benifited and the baby is harmed? where the child/foetus/baby is deprived of life.
 
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Morality. Ethics. One must be disregarded to conform to the other, they cannot coexist. jks let's not get all philosophical

Morality is YOUR preoccupation with the distinction between good and bad. It is what drives your actions so you can sleep at night.
Ethics are public, social judgements regarding the members of a community. As such, what can be determined as a moral judgement may be entirely different to that of an ethical one.

edit: Scientifically wrong? All together wrong? Could you clarify?
Scientifcally about 1 or 2 pages ago i gave a post on scientific reasons against abortion also with experiences of those who had an abortion a few pages ago.

All together wrong i say this because i can not find a right. there is no right in murdering your own child.
 
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abbeyroad

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Okay I admit giving an American law is kind of inapplicable to an Australian Forum, but to think that there was a case in a supreme court which ruled killing of a human, and even a foetus being illegal is worth looking at and giving extra thought.
cool story bro

Roe v. Wade - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

also,

CAL. PEN. CODE § 187 : California Code - Section 187 in full

(a)Murder is the unlawful killing of a human being, or a fetus, with malice aforethought.


(b)This section shall not apply to any person who commits an act that results in the death of a fetus if any of the following apply:


(1)The act complied with the Therapeutic Abortion Act, Article 2 (commencing with Section 123400) of Chapter 2 of Part 2 of Division 106 of the Health and Safety Code.


(2)The act was committed by a holder of a physician's and surgeon's certificate, as defined in the Business and Professions Code, in a case where, to a medical certainty, the result of childbirth would be death of the mother of the fetus or where her death from childbirth, although not medically certain, would be substantially certain or more likely than not.


(3)The act was solicited, aided, abetted, or consented to by the mother of the fetus.


(c)Subdivision (b) shall not be construed to prohibit the prosecution of any person under any other provision of law.

fucking fail
 

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okay there is both religious and scientific reasons against abortion (i think the two go hand in hand but that's another story)

Religious reasons

For you created my inmost being; you knit me together in my mother's womb.
I praise you because I am fearfully and wonderfully made; your works are wonderful, I know that full well.
(Psalm 139)

"Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me." (Psalm 51:5)

When Elizabeth heard Mary's greeting, the baby leaped in her womb, and Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit. (Luke 1: 41)

Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee (Jeremiah 1:5)

The above bible quotes prove why abortion is wrong, and the above come from the old and new testaments meaning that both Christian and Judaism both value these words.

Scientific Reasons (You want Scientifc Reasons I give you Scientifc Reasons)
"Zygote: this cell results from the union of an oocyte and a sperm. A zygote is the beginning of a new human being (i.e., an embryo). Human development begins at fertilization… This highly specialized, totipotent cell marks the beginning of each of us as a unique individual." (The Developing Human: Clinically Oriented Embryology)

"Fertilization is an important landmark because, under ordinary circumstances, a new, genetically distinct human organism is thereby formed…" (Human Embryology & Teratology, Second Edition)

"By all criteria of modern molecular biology, life is present from the moment of conception." Dr. Hymie Gordon (Mayo Clinic)

"after fertilization has taken place a new human being has come into being." Dr. Jerome LeJeune (University of Descartes)

"It is scientifically correct to say that an individual human life begins at conception" Dr. Micheline Matthews-Roth (Harvard University Medical School):

Now what in order to tackle when an embryo/feotus/baby becomes human lets see what goes on while its in the mothers womb

  • Fetal heart begins to form 18 days after conception
  • Measurable heart beat 21-24 days after conception
  • Fetal brain begins to form on day 25
  • Brain waves produced by 6 weeks


So when are abortions occuring?
22% of abortions occur before 6 weeks
18% on the 7th week
18% on the 8th week
and 42% after the 8th week
meaning 78% occur after the brain waves has been produced

The Experience of Doctors who Abort and Mothers who have Aborted
I watched as the contents of the woman’s womb came through a suctioning device and into a stainless-steel pail sitting at his feet. I stepped back and wiped the perspiration from my brow. "This is kind of gruesome," I said…. The doctor said, “At this point in a pregnancy, the products of conception aren’t much.” I stepped forward and peered into the pail. This time I broke out in a cold sweat. I backed up and leaned against the wall, my eyes closed. Dear Jesus! I thought. I just saw someone murdered! And I just stood and watched! (Nurse Don Haines, in training)

I had a quick sonogram and then received a shot of methrotrexate. After the shot, I came home... I went to bed that evening around 9 p.m… I continued contracting and bleeding most of the night. Around three in the morning, I went to the bathroom. When I stood up, I noticed that the pain and the pressure was not from clots, but from passing the placenta. When I looked in the commode, I saw laying in the center of the placenta my baby. I saw the baby's perfectly formed hands, the little fingers. I remember the scream that came from my mouth... [from a 7 week abortion] (Char, "I used to be Pro-choice...But…")

"I opened the sock up and I put it on the towel and there were parts in there of a person. I’d taken anatomy; I was a medical student. I knew what I was looking at. There was a little scapula and there was an arm, and I saw some ribs and a chest, and I saw a little tiny head, and I saw a piece of a leg, and I saw a tiny hand. ... I checked it out and there were two arms and two legs and one head, etc., and I turned and said, I guess you got it all ... It was pretty awful that first time... it was like somebody put a hot poker into me." (Dr. David Brewer, in training)

Scientifc Conclusions

  • Human life begins at conception
  • Human development proceeds rapidly (all organs and systems are in place by week 8)
  • Abortion stops a beating heart
  • Most abortions occur after the fetus exhibits measurable brain waves


Legal Reasons

CALIFORNIA PENAL CODE
SECTION 187-199

187.

a.Murder is the unlawful killing of a human being, or a fetus, with malice aforethought.

source: CAL. PEN. CODE § 187 : California Code - Section 187

What if we compare abortion (2003) to slavery(1850's)?
Abortion - "They're not persons"
Slavery - "They're not persons but property"

Abortion - "It's a personal choice"
Slavery - "It's a personal choice"

Abortion - "It's a religious issue
Slavery - It's a religious issue

source: Abortion Vs. Slavery

Just think about it.
ahahahaahahah plz lrn2science. thalamocortical connections in the brain don't BEGIN to form until at least week 23. the thalamus processes and relays sensory inputs to the cerebral cortex and is responsible for the regulation of consciousness, which means that a fetus in utero cannot feel pain and cannot be aware until at least the 23rd week. How can a fetus be a human being when it doesn't even have the capacity for consciousness? You can legally turn off the life support of someone with an irreversible and permanent loss of consciousness and you can't ???
 

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I have read these quotes, most of them are cases of pro-life people having abortions or pro-life people voicing out their opinions at an abortion clinic.
yet i can not find reason in any of these quotes that prove why abortion is right, that prove they are not killing a human being. i have taken them into consideration but still i can not find any reason.
It breaks my heart to read all of these cases where people have killed their own child.
But even if abortion is going on, even if some pro-life people go astray and have abortions and even if people think its right.
I firmly believe it is morally, ethically, scientifically and all together wrong and i will continue fighting against it.
it illustrates the hypocrisy typical of you pro life religious nut jobs you fucking imbecile. how stupid are you.




ps mods please fix the damn server plz.
 
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and this is why muslims are da best

if a girl gets pregnant muslims get the youngest member of the family to do an honor killing so he doesn't have a criminal record later on in life and it kills the whore + the baby. 2 for the price of one.
Harsh, but I can't say that I didn't lol.

Friggin arabs
 
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Let me question your wording.

Killing is different to murdering. You kill germs, weeds, bugs, animals. Murdering is the intentional kill of innocent human life which is a person.

A foetus is killed intentionally. It is genetically human, of no other species. Whether it is "innocent" or not is not relevant as it wouldn't be the foetus' conscious decision to endanger the mother. To be a person is to be conscious, self aware and have memory. A foetus does not have these, and as long as its life is dependent on the mother's then it is her decision to veto it, as the stronger life force can allow or not allow the parasite to live.
Thus there is no ethical problem posed in terminating/killing a pregnancy.
It is not murder.
The problem that arises from this is that given the chance to grow, that foetus will become a human, so some people still regard it as murder. Its like potential energy-it still exists, you can't exactly ignore it.
 

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Greg Le Bouche said:
The problem that arises from this is that given the chance to grow, that foetus will become a human, so some people still regard it as murder. Its like potential energy-it still exists, you can't exactly ignore it.
I understand how someone may come to that conclusion, but as long as there are two life forces, and one dependant, the stronger force has the choice to veto it.

Regarding what I have bolded in your post, you're entirely right, a foetus is a potential person. But it is not a distinct entity. And it isn't physically independant. As soon as the foetus can live individually, after its "trip down the birth canal" it is awarded full human rights. But as long as a gestating foetus is afforded nutrients and oxygen by the mother, there are two entities in one body with different rights as such its worth is secondary to the mothers and can be terminated.

By "physically independent" & "living individually" I do not mean social independence, which is regarding the physical needs of the child.

ix3powerrangers said:
Sorry, allow me to reword my previous statement
It is morally wrong to murder a child whilst it is in its mothers womb

Okay if you define a person to be "conscious, self aware and have memory" what would you define a person in a coma to be? they are unconscious, nor are they self aware and i doubt they have any memory of that situation.
Then would it be alright to murder someone in a coma? even with the many cases of people coming out of a coma?

If you consider a foetus to be a "parasite", wouldn't that make you once a "parasite" once?
In biology we were taught that "parisitism" is where one is benifited and the other is harmed. Parisitism is where one is deprived of something whether it is food, shelter etc. A baby in the mother's womb does not deprive the mother of anything. With food, when a mother is pregnant the body produces extra nutrients just for the baby. Therefore it is not parasitism.

Wouldn't an abortion be kind of like "parisitism" where the mother is benifited and the baby is harmed? where the child/foetus/baby is deprived of life.
Exactly right. A human in a coma (I'm not talking temporary but 100% chance of never waking up) lacks all three of those things, and as such lacks personhood. ou should really consider your use of the term "murder". The human in the coma is dependant upon life support machines and doctor's care. Its family can decide whether to end its life.
See how akin that is to abortion. It is the family's (mother's) choice as it is dependant.

I understand that it is morally wrong for you to terminate a pregnancy. But morals are irrelevant as they are personal. Let's substitute "ethical". It is not ethically wrong to "murder" (just quoting you, although it isn't murder and it isn't a child as it is still in the mother's womb so it should be "terminating" or "killing") a foetus dependant on its mother.

Please read my reply to Greg Le Bouche, it also addresses the "parasite" thing. By parasite I meant there were two entities in one body. Read above.

You say "child/foetus/baby". These are three entirely different things.

A child "a human between the stages of birth and puberty"
A foetus "a developing mammal or other viviparious vertebrate after the embryonic stage and before birth. In humans the fetal stage of prenatal development starts at the beginning of the 11th week in gestational age, which is the 9th week after fertilisation."
A baby "the term used to refer to the very young offspring of humans"
(all from wikipedia)

You are incorrect any word but foetus as only the foetus is deprived of life and as I've written at least twice this is not ethically wrong.
 

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mmm yes


A foetus is not a child in the same way that a child is not an adult.

They are not interchangeable terms.
 
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it illustrates the hypocrisy typical of you pro life religious nut jobs you fucking imbecile. how stupid are you.




ps mods please fix the damn server plz.
Just because those types of cases exist, does it change whether what is being killed human or not. This does not prove at all that abortion is right or wrong.
Trust me there are alot of cases where doctors, nurses who have witnessed abortions, mothers who have had abortions gone back and changed their opinions. As i have given quotes in my previous posts.

I understand how someone may come to that conclusion, but as long as there are two life forces, and one dependant, the stronger force has the choice to veto it.

Regarding what I have bolded in your post, you're entirely right, a foetus is a potential person. But it is not a distinct entity. And it isn't physically independant. As soon as the foetus can live individually, after its "trip down the birth canal" it is awarded full human rights. But as long as a gestating foetus is afforded nutrients and oxygen by the mother, there are two entities in one body with different rights as such its worth is secondary to the mothers and can be terminated.

By "physically independent" & "living individually" I do not mean social independence, which is regarding the physical needs of the child.



Exactly right. A human in a coma (I'm not talking temporary but 100% chance of never waking up) lacks all three of those things, and as such lacks personhood. you should really consider your use of the term "murder". The human in the coma is dependant upon life support machines and doctor's care. Its family can decide whether to end its life.
See how akin that is to abortion. It is the family's (mother's) choice as it is dependant.

I understand that it is morally wrong for you to terminate a pregnancy. But morals are irrelevant as they are personal. Let's substitute "ethical". It is not ethically wrong to "murder" (just quoting you, although it isn't murder and it isn't a child as it is still in the mother's womb so it should be "terminating" or "killing") a foetus dependant on its mother.

Please read my reply to Greg Le Bouche, it also addresses the "parasite" thing. By parasite I meant there were two entities in one body. Read above.

You say "child/foetus/baby". These are three entirely different things.

A child "a human between the stages of birth and puberty"
A foetus "a developing mammal or other viviparious vertebrate after the embryonic stage and before birth. In humans the fetal stage of prenatal development starts at the beginning of the 11th week in gestational age, which is the 9th week after fertilisation."
A baby "the term used to refer to the very young offspring of humans"
(all from wikipedia)

You are incorrect any word but foetus as only the foetus is deprived of life and as I've written at least twice this is not ethically wrong.
Okay there is a difference between terminating life support and terminating a pregnancy (or to murder a child-- or baby to make you happy, i'll clarify this later).
Life support is artificial life, turning off life support allows the natural course of life take its path. Keeping life support on gives the chance supported by the hope of the family to live.
On the other hand abortion is not a natural cause it blocks the natural course of life to take its path.

I forgot to add last night that how are you really sure that a baby in the mothers womb is unconscious, not self aware and do not have any memory?

Have you ever experienced a family or friend who has had a pregnancy? I remember experiencing my mom being pregnant to my siblings and a friend pregnant recently and she just gave birth a few months ago
It's a wonderful experience! and whilest experiencing and being with them during their experience i knew and felt that the baby was alive, conscious and aware. With my friend's recent pregnancy she could feel the baby moving in her womb in reaction do the sounds around her. Like when she's vacuuming she could feel the baby move. When i was young i loved feeling my brother kick in my mom's womb.
Now going back to abortions, have you ever seen an abortion take place? There is one video where a baby is being aborted in the mothers womb and you could see the needle coming in and as the needle goes in you can see the baby inching away from it, trying its best possible to move away from the needle. Another one is where the baby is being aborted and you can see it in the position of a scream.
With the above twoo how can you say they are unconcious and not self aware?

Now dealing with memory. How are you sure that a baby in the mothers womb do not have memory does not have any memory?
This reminds me of a time in primary school when me and my friends were having a conversation.
Friend: What's your most favourite day of your life?
Me: *thinks* that's hard idk, what's yours?
Friend: When I was born.
Me: Wait a minute you don't remember the day you were born
Friend: But that's still my favourite day cause i know it happened
I doubt most of us remember being born, or being taken for the first time out of the hospital to your home, or other memories as a baby like experiencing first teeth etc. Now we don't remember the days we were in the womb and we don't remember days as a baby outside of the womb.
My point is that you say that "as a baby in the mothers womb we didn't have memory" but how can you back this up? is it because we don't remember those days? because we don't remember our days as a baby outside of the womb, yet these are the days many of you claim that is the moment a foetus becomes human.

Now to further back up my argument on a babie's conciousness in the womb i'd like to show you some articles for parents in a baby magazine. Now this isn't a pro-life article this is just a regular article from a magazine teaching parents how to look after their babies. This is from an american magazine, but if you read further they talk about research done in Australia.

Asleep and Awake
From early on in your pregnancy, your baby is more like a newborn than you might think. He sleeps, moves around, listens to sounds, and has thoughts and memories. Here's how:
Just like newborns, fetuses spend most of their time sleeping. At 32 weeks, your baby sleeps 90 to 95 percent of the day. Some of these hours are spent in deep sleep, some in REM sleep, and some in an indeterminate state -- a result of his immature brain. During REM sleep, his eyes move back and forth just like an adult's eyes. Some scientists even believe that fetuses dream while they're sleeping! Just like babies after birth, they probably dream about what they know -- the sensations they feel in the womb.
Closer to birth, your baby sleeps 85 to 90 percent of the time, the same as a newborn.

On the Move
Around the ninth week of pregnancy, your baby starts making her first movements. Those movements are probably visible with an ultrasound, even though they can't be felt for several more weeks. By 13 weeks, your baby may be able to put a thumb in her mouth, although the sucking muscles aren't completely developed yet.
Although your baby's first muscle movements were involuntary, the first voluntary muscle movements occur around week 16. After this point, awake or asleep, your baby moves 50 times or more each hour, flexing and extending her body, moving her head, face, and limbs, and exploring her warm, wet home by touch. A baby may touch her face, touch one hand to the other hand, clasp her feet, touch her foot to her leg, or her hand to the umbilical cord. By week 37, your baby has developed enough coordination so that he or she can grasp with the fingers.
Along with these common movements, babies perform some odder activities, including licking the uterine wall and "walking" around the womb by pushing off with its feet.
Fetuses also react with motion to their mother's actions. For instance, ultrasounds have shown a fetus bouncing up and down when the mother laughs. Watching this on the screen, moms-to-be often laugh harder, and the fetus starts moving up and down even faster!
Second or third children may have more stretching room in the womb than first babies because a woman's uterus is bigger and the umbilical cord longer after her first pregnancy. These children usually get more motor experience in utero and tend to be more active infants.
By week 29, you should be feeling your baby move at least 10 times an hour.

Learning and Memory
Along with the ability to feel, see, and hear comes the capacity to learn and remember. For example, a fetus may be startled by a loud noise, but stops responding once the noise has been repeated several times.
Twins at 20 weeks' gestation can be seen developing certain gestures and habits that persist into their postnatal years. In one case, a brother and sister were seen playing cheek-to-cheek on either side of the dividing membrane. At one year of age, their favorite game was to take positions on opposite sides of a curtain, and begin to laugh and giggle as they touched each other and played through the curtain.
Studies have also shown a baby can feel and remember its mother's emotional state. An experiment in Australia revealed that unborn babies were participating in the emotional upset of their mothers who were watching a disturbing 20-minute segment of a movie. When the babies were reexposed to this film up to three months after birth, they still showed recognition of the earlier experience.
In the 1980s, psychology professor Anthony James DeCasper, PhD, and colleagues at the University of North Carolina at Greensboro performed a study with a feeding contraption that allows a baby to hear one set of sounds through headphones when it sucks faster, and to hear a different set of sounds when it sucks slower. This experiment revealed that within hours of birth, a baby already prefers its mother's voice to a stranger's, suggesting that it must have learned and remembered the voice from the womb. Newborns also preferred a story read to it repeatedly in the womb over a new one. And the same soft music that soothes them in utero soothes them again after birth.
Newborns can not only distinguish their mother's voice from a stranger's, but would rather hear Mom's voice, especially the way it sounds filtered through amniotic fluid rather than through air. They also prefer to hear Mom speaking in her native language than to hear her or someone else speaking in a foreign tongue.
Babies in the womb are probably reacting to the overall sound of voices and stories, not their actual words. But the conclusion is the same: the fetus can listen, learn, and remember at some level, and, as with most babies and children, he likes the comfort and reassurance of the familiar.

Sources: The Nemours Foundation; Association for Pre- & Perinatal Psychology and Health; Janet L. Hopson, "Fetal Psychology," Psychology Today, September-October 1998

taken from: Baby's Alertness in the Womb: Learning and Memory



Okay my definition for child; "A son or daughter; offspring" (The Australian Oxford Dictionary) and I agree to your definition of baby and foetus.
But according to The Australian Oxford Dictionary (1993)
Baby: A very young child
Foetus: Developed embryo in a mother's womb.
The reason why I say child and baby is because what is in the womb is the child/baby/son/daughter/offspring of the parents. To abort/murder their own child, their own son or daughter is completely wrong and i can not even find any right in it!​
 

scarybunny

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No, it's not a child/baby. Same as it's not an adult. These are different stages of human development which the foetus in the womb has not reached yet.

You could argue that once it is able to live outside of the womb, in the late stages of pregnancy, it is a baby. But not before then. And I don't think people here are advocating late abortions anyway.


I find it very very silly that a tiny cluster of cells would have the same value as a human adult.
 

jennyfromdabloc

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Okay there is a difference between terminating life support and terminating a pregnancy (or to murder a child-- or baby to make you happy, i'll clarify this later).
Life support is artificial life, turning off life support allows the natural course of life take its path. Keeping life support on gives the chance supported by the hope of the family to live.
On the other hand abortion is not a natural cause it blocks the natural course of life to take its path.
Umm who cares what is natural? It's not natural to use antibiotics, or chemotherapy. Should we ban these things too, because if we get sick we are "meant" to die?

Arguably everything is natural anyway. We are just a bunch of natural organisms that happen to arrange natural resources in a particular way.

Is a chimpanzee that shapes a stick and uses it to hunt termites "unnatural." At what point does sophisticated manipulation of natural resources become "unnatural?"
 
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Elliot220

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This is why I enjoy Studies of Religion class - bioethics debates.

Personally, I'm against abortion unless the mother's life is in danger, the child will be born with severe defects (that is; vegetative/semi-vegetative etc) or if the mother was raped.

Why can't people decide they don't want kids before they're pregnant
OR
Adoption!!!
 

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