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$60b wiped off market (3 Viewers)

Lentern

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Ugh, never ever do that again. I can look past our polar opposite political differences on almost every issue and still see you as an intelligent and reasonably decent guy but if you do that again...
 

Garygaz

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no really, tell us how gold is different from index funds or derivatives for that matter? just as the price of an index fund is tied to the performance of the index which it tracks, the price of gold is tied to the performance of the economy as a whole. when the ROI in other markets is much greater, the price of gold would naturally go down. and during times of great uncertainty and decreased ROI in other markets what happens to the price of gold?
check great depression
 

Garygaz

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90s asian recession, no noticeable increase in gold price
 

abbeyroad

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check great depression
yeah you said it the great depression. how many great depressions had there been? how long have we been investing in gold? shit, during the great depression shares were greatly undervalued too, but I don't hear you calling investment in shares illogical.



come on bro, wanna tell me what happened between 1973-1975 when the price of gold skyrocketed? what about the 80s and early 90s?

90s asian recession, no noticeable increase in gold price
yes because the 1997 asian financial crisis affected the rest of the world right right.
in any case the strong growth in china was enough to offset most of the turmoil it caused to the global economy.
 

Garygaz

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cool. can't remember the name, but i'm about to leave for uni so i'll check later, but this indian economist who predicted the 07 mortgage bubble in 05 is also predicting a major-recession in the next 1-2 years due to the sovereign debt crisis at the moment, yes this is just 1 opinion, but it still warrants some respect. italy, ireland, greece, spain - these countries are living off borrowed time, and they're getting worse. what if the US gets downgraded again? do you think china is going to buy their bonds forever? if ireland, greece and spain (or any combination of them) default, and china stops buying american bonds due to their decreasing ratings and reducing returns on exchange rates, shit will hit the fan.

i think it's mad if you think people will still be buying gold when this is all happening during a sovereign crisis. it's not redeemable for anything anymore, it doesn't produce anything, it doesn't yield anything, it's given its worth by an economic principle which will be completely ignored when markets have a severe enough correction/recession.
 

Lentern

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cool. can't remember the name, but i'm about to leave for uni so i'll check later, but this indian economist who predicted the 07 mortgage bubble in 05 is also predicting a major-recession in the next 1-2 years due to the sovereign debt crisis at the moment, yes this is just 1 opinion, but it still warrants some respect. italy, ireland, greece, spain - these countries are living off borrowed time, and they're getting worse. what if the US gets downgraded again? do you think china is going to buy their bonds forever? if ireland, greece and spain (or any combination of them) default, and china stops buying american bonds due to their decreasing ratings and reducing returns on exchange rates, shit will hit the fan.

i think it's mad if you think people will still be buying gold when this is all happening during a sovereign crisis. it's not redeemable for anything anymore, it doesn't produce anything, it doesn't yield anything, it's given its worth by an economic principle which will be completely ignored when markets have a severe enough correction/recession.
It's Das isn't it? By his own admission he has predicted "7 of the last 3 recessions."
 

SylviaB

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i think it's mad if you think people will still be buying gold when this is all happening during a sovereign crisis.
bro peter schiff predicted teh crash in 05 and believes there will be an economic collapse in the next few years

and he's the biggest gold bug ever


it's not redeemable for anything anymore
um, what? Don't you mean money isn't redeemable for anything (gold) any more?

When was gold "redeemable" for something (other than being able to be sold for cash)?

it doesn't produce anything
so all commodities invstment is bunk then, huh?

it doesn't yield anything,
Really? During times of economic turmoil and with the massive likelihood of economic crash(es), you're really worried about yield?

No one is saying make gold 100% of your portfolio during "healthy" economic times, but when the risk of losing the majority of your wealth through a stock market collapse etc is there, surely yeild can take a back seat for the time being.

it's given its worth by an economic principle which will be completely ignored when markets have a severe enough correction/recession.
??

It's given its value because people view it as safe, and people seek safety during a recession more than any other times, especially if it's going to be inflationary in nature as many are predicting.

Are you aware of the fact that gold hit an all-time high last week, following a massive correction?


And no, don't point to the great depression, gold was confiscated and couldn't be traded on an open market.
 

Garygaz

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if i want to short the market, ill buy some calls and ETFs, not buy gold. that is a GUARANTEED way to make money when the market collapses. almost every other commodity traded on the market has a practical use and a demand which is derived from such, as previously discussed (like pages and pages back) the price of gold in no way reflects its practical use.

money is redeemable for almost anything, even during massive depressions, if a government doesn't go ape-shit and print mass amounts of cash, money still retains value. gold derives its value from peoples perceived notion that it is a stop loss on their investments if the market performs badly. tbh just forget that it is gold, it could be any substance, any material (that is limited in its production) e.g. a bottle of reserve whiskey. what if a hypothetical market presumed that a rare bottle of whiskey (which only 500 were produced every year) was like gold is now, essentially a hedge against poor economic times and a weakening american dollar. everyone flocks to it because it's just common knowledge that they will make money as more investors become nervous about the market (or try and get on the train before it gets away from them). However, it is in fact a totally fucking useless bottle of whiskey, it only stores value because people 'think' and are told it does. i don't 'think' a share has a specific value, it gives me claim of ownership over a company. i don't 'think' iron ore has value, it is needed to create steel which is in high demand by developing asian countries.

gold has all the characteristics of a bubble right now, and maybe if it does correct, i'll feel slightly vindicated. but god knows how long that could be.
 

abbeyroad

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hahahahaha gold has no practical use says internet gold expert.

Medicine

In medieval times, gold was often seen as beneficial for the health, in the belief that something that rare and beautiful could not be anything but healthy. Even some modern esotericists and forms of alternative medicine assign metallic gold a healing power.[15] Some gold salts do have anti-inflammatory properties and are used as pharmaceuticals in the treatment of arthritis and other similar conditions.[16] However, only salts and radioisotopes of gold are of pharmacological value, as elemental (metallic) gold is inert to all chemicals it encounters inside the body. In modern times, injectable gold has been proven to help to reduce the pain and swelling of rheumatoid arthritis and tuberculosis.[16][17]

Gold alloys are used in restorative dentistry, especially in tooth restorations, such as crowns and permanent bridges. The gold alloys' slight malleability facilitates the creation of a superior molar mating surface with other teeth and produces results that are generally more satisfactory than those produced by the creation of porcelain crowns. The use of gold crowns in more prominent teeth such as incisors is favored in some cultures and discouraged in others.

Colloidal gold preparations (suspensions of gold nanoparticles) in water are intensely red-colored, and can be made with tightly controlled particle sizes up to a few tens of nanometers across by reduction of gold chloride with citrate or ascorbate ions. Colloidal gold is used in research applications in medicine, biology and materials science. The technique of immunogold labeling exploits the ability of the gold particles to adsorb protein molecules onto their surfaces. Colloidal gold particles coated with specific antibodies can be used as probes for the presence and position of antigens on the surfaces of cells.[18] In ultrathin sections of tissues viewed by electron microscopy, the immunogold labels appear as extremely dense round spots at the position of the antigen.[19] Colloidal gold is also the form of gold used as gold paint on ceramics prior to firing.

Gold, or alloys of gold and palladium, are applied as conductive coating to biological specimens and other non-conducting materials such as plastics and glass to be viewed in a scanning electron microscope. The coating, which is usually applied by sputtering with an argon plasma, has a triple role in this application. Gold's very high electrical conductivity drains electrical charge to earth, and its very high density provides stopping power for electrons in the electron beam, helping to limit the depth to which the electron beam penetrates the specimen. This improves definition of the position and topography of the specimen surface and increases the spatial resolution of the image. Gold also produces a high output of secondary electrons when irradiated by an electron beam, and these low-energy electrons are the most commonly used signal source used in the scanning electron microscope.[20]

The isotope gold-198, (half-life 2.7 days) is used in some cancer treatments and for treating other diseases.[21]
Food and drink

* Gold can be used in food and has the E number 175.[22]
* Gold leaf, flake or dust is used on and in some gourmet foods, notably sweets and drinks as decorative ingredient.[23] Gold flake was used by the nobility in Medieval Europe as a decoration in food and drinks, in the form of leaf, flakes or dust, either to demonstrate the host's wealth or in the belief that something that valuable and rare must be beneficial for one's health.
* Danziger Goldwasser (German: Gold water of Danzig) or Goldwasser (English: Goldwater) is a traditional German herbal liqueur[24] produced in what is today Gdańsk, Poland, and Schwabach, Germany, and contains flakes of gold leaf. There are also some expensive (~$1000) cocktails which contain flakes of gold leaf.[25] However, since metallic gold is inert to all body chemistry, it has no taste, it provides no nutrition, and it leaves the body unaltered.[26]

Industry

* Gold solder is used for joining the components of gold jewelry by high-temperature hard soldering or brazing. If the work is to be of hallmarking quality, gold solder must match the carat weight of the work, and alloy formulas are manufactured in most industry-standard carat weights to color match yellow and white gold. Gold solder is usually made in at least three melting-point ranges referred to as Easy, Medium and Hard. By using the hard, high-melting point solder first, followed by solders with progressively lower melting points, goldsmiths can assemble complex items with several separate soldered joints.
* Gold can be made into thread and used in embroidery.
* Gold produces a deep, intense red color when used as a coloring agent in cranberry glass.
* In photography, gold toners are used to shift the color of silver bromide black-and-white prints towards brown or blue tones, or to increase their stability. Used on sepia-toned prints, gold toners produce red tones. Kodak published formulas for several types of gold toners, which use gold as the chloride.[27]
* As gold is a good reflector of electromagnetic radiation such as infrared and visible light as well as radio waves, it is used for the protective coatings on many artificial satellites, in infrared protective faceplates in thermal protection suits and astronauts' helmets and in electronic warfare planes like the EA-6B Prowler.
* Gold is used as the reflective layer on some high-end CDs.
* Automobiles may use gold for heat dissipation. McLaren uses gold foil in the engine compartment of its F1 model.[28]
* Gold can be manufactured so thin that it appears transparent. It is used in some aircraft cockpit windows for de-icing or anti-icing by passing electricity through it. The heat produced by the resistance of the gold is enough to deter ice from forming.[29]

Electronics

The concentration of free electrons in gold metal is 5.90×1022 cm−3. Gold is highly conductive to electricity, and has been used for electrical wiring in some high-energy applications (only silver and copper are more conductive per volume, but gold has the advantage of corrosion resistance). For example, gold electrical wires were used during some of the Manhattan Project's atomic experiments, but large high current silver wires were used in the calutron isotope separator magnets in the project.

Though gold is attacked by free chlorine, its good conductivity and general resistance to oxidation and corrosion in other environments (including resistance to non-chlorinated acids) has led to its widespread industrial use in the electronic era as a thin layer coating electrical connectors of all kinds, thereby ensuring good connection. For example, gold is used in the connectors of the more expensive electronics cables, such as audio, video and USB cables. The benefit of using gold over other connector metals such as tin in these applications is highly debated. Gold connectors are often criticized by audio-visual experts as unnecessary for most consumers and seen as simply a marketing ploy. However, the use of gold in other applications in electronic sliding contacts in highly humid or corrosive atmospheres, and in use for contacts with a very high failure cost (certain computers, communications equipment, spacecraft, jet aircraft engines) remains very common.[30]

Besides sliding electrical contacts, gold is also used in electrical contacts because of its resistance to corrosion, electrical conductivity, ductility and lack of toxicity.[31] Switch contacts are generally subjected to more intense corrosion stress than are sliding contacts. Fine gold wires are used to connect semiconductor devices to their packages through a process known as wire bonding.
Commercial chemistry

Gold is attacked by and dissolves in alkaline solutions of potassium or sodium cyanide, to form the salt gold cyanide—a technique that has been used in extracting metallic gold from ores in the cyanide process. Gold cyanide is the electrolyte used in commercial electroplating of gold onto base metals and electroforming.

Gold chloride (chloroauric acid) solutions are used to make colloidal gold by reduction with citrate or ascorbate ions. Gold chloride and gold oxide are used to make highly valued cranberry or red-colored glass, which, like colloidal gold suspensions, contains evenly sized spherical gold nanoparticles.[32]
at issue is not whether there is a gold bubble, but whether the philosophy behind using gold, and by extension most other financial instruments, as a store of value is "illogical". you've gone from saying that gold is an illegitimate store of value to saying that gold is overvalued. seriously what the hell are you even trying to argue? you can't even form a coherent argument.

if i want to short the market, ill buy some calls and ETFs, not buy gold. that is a GUARANTEED way to make money when the market collapses.
IF the market collapses. you'll be in stop loss mode when when it doesn't, at least with gold you can still make a profit so long as you bought low, or you could cover your long with a put.

i don't 'think' a share has a specific value, it gives me claim of ownership over a company
yes you do "think" that a share has a specific value, that specific value is determined by the underlying company's performance and financial position and your claim of ownership is worthless if said company is heavily in debt and can't even turn a profit. go read security analysis by graham.
 

Garygaz

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jesus fucking christ you shit poster. i said it's price in no way reflects its practical use as opposed to other commodities.

go die in a hole and learn to read
 
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because $58 billion less in gov expenditure means schools, health, roads and transport gets fucked. I completely disagree that abolishing corp. tax would in any way be a good idea. it's not socialist to realize that some level of taxation needs to take place.
your ideals are interesting. you don't really have to think hard to see all the services that would disappear, the military existing with no tax? i think not. gov reports showing ferries would have to cost up to $15 per ride to make them viable if they weren't supported? goodbye sydney ferries. public schools? bad luck, you're born into a bad demographic, you aren't getting an education. fallen ill? well unluckily for you, no money, no treatment. RTA? charging motorists for using every single road they drive on?

i can't believe you actually have this grandiose idea that tax is theft. you assume gov. run corporations will run efficiently~ turning profits? you need only look at telstra and cbas profitability since they were sold off as a government asset, it's a generally agreed upon fact that gov. owned companies run at high levels of inefficiency.
mfw you're too fucking retarded to say anything but WOW. telstra picking up 500,000 new mobile customers last year, securing massive payments over the next ten years for its copper lines and investing heavily into data storage in anticipation for cloud.

yeah cause all this would have happened if it was government owned.

get your head out of aussiepensionerinvestors.com
if you seriously advocate in any way that a public company purely driven for profits and at the mercy of its shareholders would operate anywhere near the same levels as a government owned entity you are miles down idiot creek
maybe it looks slightly backwards and rushed, but the point is private/public owned corporations>gov enterprises
telstra ran a fear campaign against the nbn? that's news to me.

okay let me go back to square one. i'm not sure where this arguement got too, but it was originally about tax and now has moved onto having gov owned monopolies in markets to fund public spending?

hate to keep bringing up the same points but do you guys even remember how shit telstra was when it was government owned? horrible call out times on technicians, call centres jammed, super high pricing and all around poor service. this is what happens when you have a government controlled monopoly. no incentive to improve, no incentive to innovate. since then? just look at their financial reports today, no wonder the stock has shot up >4% even though the market is down. the australian public is better off now with internet/telecommunications choices then they were in telstras monopoly gov. enterprise days.

and re the stats on china, it is a socialist country, where they don't have elections, free speech is curtailed, the internet is censored, trials are held behind closed doors.

even so:



look at the ROA on those companies. if you're wanting to live in a world without tax, enjoy sacrificing efficient industry.

what the fuck lol
 

Garygaz

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i stand by everything i said. initially there was a misunderstanding between the fact i thought when whoever was suggesting the governments cut all tax that things like education, policing, hospitals, military, some public transport and roads would just magically be funded by the private sector.


herpderp quote 2 pages of text, reply with 4 words
 

Blastus

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jesus fucking christ you shit poster. i said it's price in no way reflects its practical use as opposed to other commodities.

go die in a hole and learn to read
a practical use of gold is as a store of value

which is why it was traditionally used as a currency

what is so hard to understand about this
 

Blastus

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i stand by everything i said. initially there was a misunderstanding between the fact i thought when whoever was suggesting the governments cut all tax that things like education, policing, hospitals, military, some public transport and roads would just magically be funded by the private sector.
they would be provided as services by companies at market prices

you can already get private police, education, and hospitals.
 
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i stand by everything i said. initially there was a misunderstanding between the fact i thought when whoever was suggesting the governments cut all tax that things like education, policing, hospitals, military, some public transport and roads would just magically be funded by the private sector.


herpderp quote 2 pages of text, reply with 4 words
i wasnt trying to argue with or against you lol just quoting for posterity because what you said makes absolutely no fucking sense
 
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you start by arguing against a cut in taxes because we will lose govt run services (monopolies)

then you go on to argue extensively that govt run services (monopolies) (telstra) are bad and inefficient




you fucking moron lol
 

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