Katie, you go down to Villawood once a week like I do, sit down with some of the refugees, perhaps play chess that is what I do with them, and genuinely get to know them and then come back and tell me that they are scum, that they deserve to be placed in prisons, that they should be passed around like a ticking parcel because I can tell you that you will not, if a heart beats inside you then you will not. You will meet some extraordinary, amiable, intelligent people and it will break you seeing them slowly losing what little pride and amibiton they have less, being whittled away into conformist, depressed lumps. It is the most extraordinary thing to meet these people and to know so many Australians think they deserve this horrible treatment. It's just disgusting.