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Marriage equality (3 Viewers)

soloooooo

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Replace LGBTI with Aboriginal and you'll see how inappropriate that "argument" is.
My opinion would still be the same in that scenario. That isn't racism either, that is life.

That's the point! Why do you disapprove? Because a book full of historical and societal nonsense, which was once-upon-a-time useful but has now served its purpose, says so? If that's not your reason, I am genuinely interested in knowing it.
By the way at this time I am not interested in discussing religion as a whole.
I'm not religious. My opinion is that marriage should not be modified and remain untouched. Introduce a separate form of homosexual marriage and give it a name other than marriage, e.g. gay marriage or gay partnership or whatever.
 

mcchicken

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My opinion would still be the same in that scenario. That isn't racism either, that is life.



I'm not religious. My opinion is that marriage should not be modified and remain untouched. Introduce a separate form of homosexual marriage and give it a name other than marriage, e.g. gay marriage or gay partnership or whatever.
That is not equality.
 

wannaspoon

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Ooh look at the score in that gif, man. There's a reason the Jaguars supporter is baffled.

In all seriousness, I value your input. We clearly have different points of view and you do have some arguments that are worth listening to.
The moral high ground, niiiicccceeee...

I do agree, discrimination is a landmine... However, institutionally, the government has done all it can to get rid of the so called discrimination barriers that exist for those in the LGBTI community (with the exclusion of same sex marriage)...

Being a bit hypocritical in your previous post are you not? Discrimination is a landmine, however, I am willing to demonise an entire religious group and their practices for the purposes of discrediting them and putting forward an agenda?

Fact of the matter is, Religion has not been the only thing out to discriminate those of the LGBTI community... For years, homosexuality was treated as a mental illness and there were genuine concerns that homosexuality stemmed from mental health... Homosexuality was even classed as a mental illness in the Diagnostic Statistical Manual and was considered sexually deviant... This perception of sexual deviance was not changed by demonising the profession of psychology...

The spread HIV/AIDS also did not help this perception... The alarming rates of infection within the male homosexual population also forced the medical profession to demonise homosexual males... But yet, we did not demonise the medical profession to change this perception...

Some (admittedly very few) in these professions still hold on to these perceptions towards the LGBTI community...
 

Rouz

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The moral high ground, niiiicccceeee...
Nah, I just wanted to emphasise that I respect you as a person and you as a debater and that I am not going to allow my difference of opinion spark personal hostility.

I'll reply to the rest of your post tomorrow. Have a good evening.
 

dan964

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Replace LGBTI with Aboriginal and you'll see how inappropriate that "argument" is.


That's the point! Why do you disapprove? Because a book full of historical and societal nonsense, which was once-upon-a-time useful but has now served its purpose, says so? If that's not your reason, I am genuinely interested in knowing it.
By the way at this time I am not interested in discussing religion as a whole.


You literally just said you disapproved of it!


Just to clarify I am talking about the cultural monopoly of Christians. In accordance with what I said before, Christianity, or any other religion which has its followers tie themselves down to a book with questionable morals by today's standards, has no place in modern society and especially not in the legal system.

Edit: I think my stance on religion is clear but I want to emphasise that I don't wish to offend anybody. If you feel that I may have done so, please inform me.
1. I am sorry but making the comparison between LGBTIQZABC... and Indigenous people is hardly appropriate. I get they are both arguing for recognition.
I am sure some of the latter would not appreciate the connection drawn...

2. Christians can hardly make up a cultural monopoly IF you're claim that the book of "questionable morals" has little bearing for today's society. (I'd like to first comment that the centre of the Christian faith is hardly its morals if you like). You cannot <exactly> have it both ways. Now I know that most Christians find the ACL quite questionable in their approach to such issues obviously. But equally is bad is a growing movement of dissent towards those of religious; basically anti-religious bigotry. Its a bit of the kettle calling the pot black kind of... (both ways).
 
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wannaspoon

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Better to be on the peaks of morality then the valleys of depravity. :tongue:
Wow, depravity is a bit harsh... I am some how a homophobe because I support enabling same sex marriage but not imposing it?
 

Nailgun

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1. I am sorry but making the comparison between LGBTIQZABC... and Indigenous people is hardly appropriate. I get they are both arguing for recognition.
I am sure some of the latter would not appreciate the connection drawn...

2. Christians can hardly make up a cultural monopoly IF you're claim that the book of "questionable morals" has little bearing for today's society. (I'd like to first comment that the centre of the Christian faith is hardly its morals if you like). You cannot <exactly> have it both ways. Now I know that most Christians find the ACL quite questionable in their approach to such issues obviously. But equally is bad is a growing movement of dissent towards those of religious; basically anti-religious bigotry. Its a bit of the kettle calling the pot black kind of... (both ways).
I thought this was actually the new acronym so I googled it.....
 

nerdasdasd

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It was LGBT, LGBTQIA,..,.. now there's a LGBTQQIAAP.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/newsbeat/artic...bt-means-but-heres-what-lgbtqqiaap-stands-for

L: Lesbian. Women attracted to women.
G: Gay. Men attracted to men.
B: Bisexual. People attracted to both sexes.
T: Transgender. People whose interior sense of gender is different than their exterior physical sexuality, whether male to female (MTF) or female to male (FTM).
Q: Queer. People who don’t want to label themselves by their sex acts but do want to claim being different, eccentric, and fabulous. Reclaimed from an old hate term, Queer can also be highly offensive, depending on usage.
Q: Questioning. People still working out who they are attracted to, often applicable to the young.
I: Intersex. People born into bodies that are not definitiviely male or female, including those born with ambiguous genitalia, bits of both male and female plumbing, or genetics beyond the standard XX and XY.
A: Asexual. People who are affectional but aren’t that into sex.
A: Allies. Straight people who support the LGBTQ+ community.
P: Pansexual. People attracted to others more by individual personality, differing from bisexuality in that they ignore the gender binary altogether.
 
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Rouz

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Institutionally, the government has done all it can to get rid of the so called discrimination barriers that exist for those in the LGBTI community (with the exclusion of same sex marriage)
So the government hasn't done all it can! Discrimination still exists.

So called discrimination? You need to first accept that your objection to marriage equality is still discrimination based on the ground of sexual preference. Then you can move onto discussing why this type of discrimination should, in your opinion, exist. Pretending won't make the issue go away. Although that's the problem, isn't it? Because once you accept that you are being discriminatory, then you're the sort of person that the society despises.

Being a bit hypocritical in your previous post are you not? Discrimination is a landmine, however, I am willing to demonise an entire religious group and their practices for the purposes of discrediting them and putting forward an agenda?
Homosexuality and Christianity. One of them is an acknowledged biological and psychological behaviour observed in about two thousand species that are not confined to mammals and the other is one of the thousands of religions that have absolutely no likeable foundation or effect on our modern society.

I have no issue with the private practice of religion and frankly, I don't care in what they believe. However, the moment you attempt to allow your religious views to change the world in which I live, then we have a problem.

All I am suggesting is that maybe it's time the religious relaxed a bit and let social progress take its course. I know it's a difficult concept and a sad one for the religious but it's time they let go.

Fact of the matter is, Religion has not been the only thing out to discriminate those of the LGBTI community... homosexuality was treated as a mental illness... Homosexuality was even classed as a mental illness in the Diagnostic Statistical Manual and was considered sexually deviant... This perception of sexual deviance was not changed by demonising the profession of psychology...
I find two reasons, discussed in complete isolation of each other while that's not the case in reality for the sake of argument, as to why homosexuality was treated in that manner.

The first reason would be the fact that homosexuality had not been widely observed, or had been completely ignored in the natural world for many reasons. Trust me that happened. People believed in spontaneous generation up until a couple hundred years ago. Similarly, there was this guy who suggested washing hands prevents the spread of disease and people laughed at him. So yea, even the educated ones can be stupid.

The second reason would be biblical and other religious influence on the society. Not only was comparing humans and the natural world a taboo, people had already accepted what normal was. Normal was what their religion-influenced culture told them it was. So why would a Christian doctor accept or even think that homosexuality was normal? I am very sure there were some who believed so, but not too many and the majority of those were apprehensive of exclusion, like that wash-your-hands guy.

I'd argue that if instead of Abrahamic religions, some south eastern religion was dominant, people wouldn't have any issue with homosexuality.

The spread HIV/AIDS also did not help this perception... The alarming rates of infection within the male homosexual population also forced the medical profession to demonise homosexual males... But yet, we did not demonise the medical profession to change this perception...
Spread of AIDS did not lead to demonisation of homosexuality. The demonisation of homosexuality lead to exaggerated beliefs. May I remind you that heterosexual sex could still give you AIDS and there were far greater numbers of sexual interactions of this type?

Some (admittedly very few) in these professions still hold on to these perceptions towards the LGBTI community...
I know mate. The world is full of scary people.
 
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Rouz

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making the comparison between LGBTIQZABC... and Indigenous people is hardly appropriate... I am sure some of the latter would not appreciate the connection drawn...
I didn't draw a connection for anybody to appreciate. I was merely pointing out that any community, no matter how small or powerless still requires attention and support. This might be a difficult concept for the religious to accept. They've had the numbers and they've been in power for too long.
 

nerdasdasd

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So the government hasn't done all it can! Discrimination still exists.

So called discrimination? You need to first accept that your objection to marriage equality is still discrimination based on the ground of sexual preference. Then you can move onto discussing why this type of discrimination should, in your opinion, exist. Pretending won't make the issue go away. Although that's the problem, isn't it? Because once you accept that you are being discriminatory, then you're the sort of person that the society despises.
Discrimination will always exist unless you have one homogeneous society where everyone has the same belief.

It's life (which is what wannaspoon said).

Also unless you throw out all of the laws and statues in Aus, then there will be no "private practice" of religion. Some laws and statues in Aus are based on christian values.

Parliaments in Australia begin with the Lord's Prayer and the Preamble in our Constitution refers to "Almighty God".
 
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Rouz

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Just as an independent side note, it really upsets me that any advocation of marriage equality encounters religious objection, as it changes the direction of the argument from discussion of a civil and social issue to a discussion of religion, and that was something I was trying to avoid when I started writing in this thread. Now however, it has been again confirmed to me that there is no escape from this.
 

Rouz

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Discrimination will always exist unless you have one homogeneous society where everyone has the same belief.
I will always have the belief, unless it is proven to me otherwise, that Citizen watches are better than Nike watches.

We will never have a homogenous society and that's fine. But some opinions are damaging and objection to marriage equality is one of them. I am sure there are lots more.

Darwinism, which is not only an explanation of biological evolution, explains that society is constantly evolving and nothing will indefinitely stay the same. We're, hopefully most of the time, adopting good ideas and chucking out the bad ones. It takes time, discussion and in some regions of the world revolutions. Now, sometimes that backfires and we end up with an idea which is far worse than what we had before. Religion is once of those things. In terms of biology, backbone problems are of that sort. But mostly it is good: women's rights, parliamentary democracy, lenient punishments. My point is to re-emphasise that despite your claim, we are never going to have a 1984 homogenous nation.

It's life (which is what wannaspoon said).
If you and Wannaspoon were born in Pakistan to a Muslim family and you, assuming that you're of the same sex, loved each other , would you still say the same thing?

Also unless you throw out all of the laws and statues in Aus, then there will be no "private practice" of religion. Some laws and statues in Aus are based on christian values. Parliaments in Australia begin with the Lord's Prayer and the Preamble in our Constitution refers to "Almighty God".
Oh I love this one! So we should adhere by whatever some old Christian guys stipulated in 1901? Maybe we should re-instate the Buggery Act or that one infamous Tasmanian law which criminalised anal sex?

Those stuff are bound to be taken out of our legal system one day. Not today and probably not tomorrow, but eventually we'll shake religion off our public and hopefully later our private life.
 
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dan964

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If you had a reason accompanying your opinion, we'd have something to talk about.
I (might have) posted it a couple of pages ago. I'll see if I can link it for you.
But generally speaking: It is in the very definition of marriage that is defined as specifically as a man and woman, that I think highlights and celebrates both the equality and the difference between man and woman in a single union, monogamous, for life and with some thought for raising a family etc.

But considering you would probably reject this understanding, I can see why you would not support such a view except that which SSM is legalised.
I will make a note that most of these things which make up marriage, such as being for life, though for raising a family; and possibly also the first bit (with SSM), devoids marriage further of its meaning, significance and purpose (of course this is debatable). Marriage was never just because two people love each other, and it traditionally never has been on such basis...

Of course you could argue that civil marriage doesn't have any meaning anyway... but...


I understand the line of argument, that says it is discriminatory. I don't see why this definition of marriage, could be labelled as sexist or racist or any of those labels (maybe homophobic, but that is a recent label that I personally think when used often presumptuously)

So the government hasn't done all it can! Discrimination still exists.

So called discrimination? You need to first accept that your objection to marriage equality is still discrimination based on the ground of sexual preference. Then you can move onto discussing why this type of discrimination should, in your opinion, exist. Pretending won't make the issue go away. Although that's the problem, isn't it? Because once you accept that you are being discriminatory, then you're the sort of person that the society despises.
Discrimination can be a good thing depends on how it does done. Depends also on the fence.
I will comment that the government has made laws that have specifically benefited groups of people which have been benefactory for the people it is intended towards; such as the government support programs for Indigenous people, and you could even include bullying programs that target homophobia and transphobia in schools. I think that marriage is positive discrimination, recognising exactly what I above mentioned, but also recognises the importance for a child where possible to have access to their biological father and mother with ease.

Two, this is more of technical one over semantics, but the current marriage law says nothing about the sexual attraction of the people involved (heck one could be an asexual/bisexual/pansexual), only says something about their gender or more technically their sex (for those who distinguish between the two)

I find two reasons, discussed in complete isolation of each other while that's not the case in reality for the sake of argument, as to why homosexuality was treated in that manner.

The first reason would be the fact that homosexuality had not been widely observed, or had been completely ignored in the natural world for many reasons. Trust me that happened. People believed in spontaneous generation up until a couple hundred years ago. Similarly, there was this guy who suggested washing hands prevents the spread of disease and people laughed at him. So yea, even the educated ones can be stupid.
This argument isn't that strong. What makes you think that the current "educated" ones that say this or that are any better - it is all subjective.

I would comment also and say that historically, homosexuality was indeed widely practiced in pagan societies such as ancient Rome
(I would also add as a unusual fact, so was pedophilia, but lets not go there).

The second reason would be biblical and other religious influence on the society. Not only was comparing humans and the natural world a taboo, people had already accepted what normal was. Normal was what their religion-influenced culture told them it was. So why would a Christian doctor accept or even think that homosexuality was normal? I am very sure there were some who believed so, but not too many and the majority of those were apprehensive of exclusion, like that wash-your-hands guy.
From about 300AD possible (I wouldn't think that strongly before that period). As mentioned, this argument doesn't apply to before that time period I suspect. Although I will say that the biological factor that a man-woman is required for reproduction in most species of animals lends itself to suggest that such is the "normative". I'd be careful with your conclusion, to make the claim, well they were stupid but we are now smarter - it ain't necessarily the case.

I'd argue that if instead of Abrahamic religions, some south eastern religion was dominant, people wouldn't have any issue with homosexuality.
Possibly, we will never know... to be continued, please wait a sec... I have to retype it because page reloaded..
 

dan964

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That would be correct, if we were talking about a priest being forced to bless a gay couple, or a Muslim being forced to deal with pork. We're taking about a baker or a florist or a government celebrant. Interactions between people in a specifically non-religious context are civil matters governed by the state and religion has no say in it. If a baker chooses to not bake a wedding cake for a gay couple, that's not the baker's interpretation of his religion. That's discrimination.
Maybe the case for the civil celebrant. But it is still on the grounds of conscience. Welcome to capitalism.

But the right to refuse service is (well at least in the US) on the grounds of conscience is something that should happen because we are still a capitalist and mostly free-economy society. It is only their loss. But then to go to sue them on discrimination basis, and say hey you dumb Christian/Muslim baker, bake me a cake or I sue you, is a bit rich. In fact most of the cases where this happened, it was done respectfully and explaining their view, but no... don't align to a particular view you get sued.

I fail to see why, for a professional, preparing a bouquet or baking a cake or signing a document for a gay couple somehow goes against the professional's religion or their interpretation of their religion.
And there is the problem... it does... whether you understand or not. It is called conscience.

Your views expressed stem on this one key point which I will comment on later...
Your view of religion presumes that religion is contained only in the private place, or the place of worship. For most religious people it isn't...


=====
section 2:

I will always have the belief, unless it is proven to me otherwise, that Citizen watches are better than Nike watches.
So what, people in the "Does God exist?" thread, which I have posted in several times have posted beliefs in pastafarianism and other things like that. It hardly proves anything... except that some really have a distaste for religion.

We will never have a homogenous society and that's fine. But some opinions are damaging and objection to marriage equality is one of them. I am sure there are lots more.
I am sorry but when was marriage equality some pie in the sky that had to be obtained??
It is a loaded term filled with rhetorical. So your argument that opinions are damaging to marriage equality; I will equally make the claim that the very term "marriage equality" is damaging to the conventional understanding of marriage, because it presumes that its design is required to extend (which I would argue it doesn't).


Darwinism, which is not only an explanation of biological evolution, explains that society is constantly evolving and nothing will indefinitely stay the same. We're, hopefully most of the time, adopting good ideas and chucking out the bad ones. It takes time, discussion and in some regions of the world revolutions. Now, sometimes that backfires and we end up with an idea which is far worse than what we had before. Religion is once of those things. In terms of biology, backbone problems are of that sort. But mostly it is good: women's rights, parliamentary democracy, lenient punishments. My point is to re-emphasise that despite your claim, we are never going to have a 1984 homogenous nation.
If you really want to talk how you think religion is crap, there are other threads for that (especially if it is particular religions). I personally think the "progressivism", and I have said this before on another thread; isn't necessarily good; and I would argue that such a movement is radical and (possibly) even extremist.

Concerning Darwinism, if by that you mean adaptation, fine. But if you mean change of kinds (not species), I don't see how something 6 million years ago, is going to affect the study of anthropology today realistically.
 
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dan964

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Thirdly,
a discussion of tolerance and secular might be needed here.
While you Rouz are very tolerant (even in the way I am about to explain it); most who are of your opinion aren't (and some from my side of the fence too). Most presume that tolerance means we are allowed to have different opinions and such. But in practice there is this new form that is exhibited, tragically mostly by those in support of SSM, that says implicitly, you agree or else (we'll sue you etc.). It is the hot pot of PCness.

And secular does not mean what you envisage it, where religion is shut up in the private place, but itself being an idea and that is discussable, even for the atheist/agnostic (the latter will just probably "meh" in such situation though). If atheism has a place in the public space, or even the discussion of ideaology, why doesn't religion. Of course you cannot say everything should be said, so where is the dividing line? You have to be very careful.
 

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