American Wanting to Learn Australian Education System (1 Viewer)

[AmericanYank]

Hey guys,

I hope this is the right place to post this thread. I know there are A LOT of questions I'm asking below, so I won't take offense if you answer the ones you feel most comfortable with. Anyways, long story short, I'm interested in a girl from (Western) Sydney finishing up her studies at MQ University. She's currently studying to be an English Secondary School teacher. Her family also have a strong background in the education field. So, I really wanna make a good impression and surprise them with my knowledge of how the overall system works.

I live in the United States and I am VERY familiar with the way schools and universities work from classes to standardized tests, state rankings, public vs private, etc (if anyone wants to ask me questions about this, you're welcome to). However, I know almost nothing of Australia's, and upon my Google search, stumbled across this site. Couple days of lurking, and I have a list of questions if anybody is willing to help me.

High Distinction/ Distinction?
Okay, how do you translate these...grades/marks to the American system of A, B, C, D, F? Is it even possible?

Overall ranking of Sydney or Australian Universities? What about specific fields for Universities in Sydney?
I know Sydney has quite a few universities. I think the general conception is that University of Sydney is the overall best? Is that an accurate statement? Is their a generally accepted tier list of the universities based on overall prestige and excellence? Curious where MQ ranks.

Also, I know there universities that are specifically good for a certain type of field. Anyone have a general list in regards to this? For example, and I could be wrong, I believe UTS is great for engineering compared to others.

Ivy League equivalent?
I found the answer a half hour ago while constructing this post, lol! I believe Go8 is the equivalent, although, internationally I don't think University of Melbourne exactly ranks as high as Harvard or Oxford. (Correct me if I'm wrong. I'm also assuming University of Melbourne is the best in all of Australia)

Public/Private Universities?
Here in United States, there is a stark difference between public and private universities. ESPECIALLY in regards to price. Is this the same ordeal in Australia?
ATAR
I don't exactly understand how this works. I could really use help with this. I was a bit dumbfounded even after scrolling through the wikipedia page. What's considered an amazing score? What's considered decent? Guessing you can't retake it if you do poorly? And my last sub-question is that every program within a university has a different ATAR score a student needs to achieve to be accepted; is it very set in stone or is their some leniency?

Secondary Ed
Lol, so the girl I'm interested in is a Secondary Education major and English as well. If I understand correctly after skimming through the program details at MQ, to be JUST a teacher is a 3 year program, but, many students tack on another major. But, I'm not quite sure why people do that. Do you need to be a double major in Australia? I see many other majors this way. Everything here in the United States is 4 years for bachelors. But, I've seen the IT program be 3 years at MQ. Is MQ special in doing it this way?

Also, how is the Secondary Education program at MQ? Is MQ well known for education?

Accounting and IT?
More specific to me, lol! Essentially the same questions above but for Accounting and IT.

Is Law popular?
I've wandered around a couple university subforums and there are many people who inquire about law. Are professional degrees in demand? Here in the United States, the field of law has become very saturated and unfortunately, it's becoming common to hear people pay $100k USD only to not have a job afterwards. So now, they just swim with their loans and try to make ends meet. Unless you're in a very specific field of law, like tax law. Then you'll need a forklift to deliver your money, lol! (Kidding, but, it's lucrative)

And while we're on professional degrees, what's it like to become a doctor/physician in Australia? Here in the U.S, it's 4 years of bachelors, MCAT exam, 4 years of Med school, then 3 years of residency generally. You're finally a general physician. More years of residency/fellowship if you want to specialize.

Salary for Teachers/Accountants vs Blue Collar
I've seen many jobs that are nearly on pace with white collar jobs such as teachers and accountant starting salary in NSW/Sydney. I don't understand why one would go for such a degree when you could be a full-time employer in the receiving department overnight and earn nearly $90k in a year. Many other jobs in retail earn nearly as much as some white collar jobs. When does the money come in? Is it after years of experience? Reading NSW's salary pay grades for teachers, a teacher maximizes around 90k after 8 years. Why do I feel like you can earn nearly the same at a blue collar job?

In United States, there is a stark difference usually between blue collar and white collar jobs. Unless you're one of the more esteemed blue collar jobs like being an electrician in which case, you hit around $65k (NYC metro) and that's slightly more than a first year teacher or accountant.

HSC?
What exactly is HSC?


I apologize if these questions are a bit sloppy. Was in a rush posting this.

 

[BLIT2014]

Overall ranking of Sydney or Australian Universities? What about specific fields for Universities in Sydney?
http://www.timeshighereducation.co.uk/world-university-rankings/2013-14/world-ranking

Depends on the course but Melbourne University is rated the best out of Australia in 2013-14 according to Times Higher Education.
ANU is good for business degrees..
Is Law popular?
The field is saturated and prestige of university degree plus grades/extra curricular really matters for getting a job.

Accounting and IT?
Accounting has decent job prospects
IT I know some firms have been on a firing spree recently? Prospects are a lot better in the US

ATAR
The highest score you can get is 99.95 (roughly 48 people get this per year in NSW)
"The highest is 99.95 because ATARs are in increments of 0.05.
end up with around 40 or 50 people at each increment
http://www.uac.edu.au/documents/atar/All-About-Your-ATAR.pdf

 

[Silly Sausage]

Can't answer all of them

Grading:
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Academic_grading_in_Australia

Rankings:
http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_universities_in_Australia
MQ is around 250-300
No ivy equivalent, regardless of rank since it is sport related and go8 is research related

Not too sure but little difference in price for private/public if you're international. Private unis here are not as prevalent as they are in US.

ATAR is basically a percentile (30-99.95) of you against your cohort. Leniency is dependent on the uni and relevant bonus points for doing well in a specific subject.

 

[enoilgam]

I dont know all the answers, but I will try to address some:

University prestige/Ivy League equivalent: In Australia, uni prestige and branding is nowhere near as valuable as it is in the US. On average, a degree from USyd has little more value than a degree from UWS, unlike the US where there is a massive difference between a degree from Harvard and one from Arizona State. The reason for that is Australian unis only focus on grades, so if you meet the arbitrary cut off you get in. US colleges have College essays, GPA, SAT, interviews etc which means that the uni you go to says a lot more about you.

Public/Private Universities: There are very few private universities here, there isnt really much distinction between "private" and "public" anyway.

NSW HS System: In NSW, you complete your HSC in your final year of High School. The HSC is a combination of external and internal assessments, at the end of which you receive your marks and an ATAR. The ATAR is essentially a rank (i.e. an ATAR of 95 means you are in the top 5% of people in your age bracket). With the exception of Medicine and a couple other niche courses, university entry is determined by ATAR alone.

Degrees: In Australia, you mostly pick a specialist undergraduate degree, unlike the US were you pretty much have a BA/BSc and then you go onto graduate school to get a professional qualification. You can obtain most qualifications at an undergraduate level (i.e. Medicine, Accounting, Law, Engineering).

Law in Australia: Pretty much the same as the US, the field is over-saturated here as well.

White vs Blue Collar: Income equality here is far better than the US, but at the same time you can still make far more money as a professional white collar worker. In Australia, blue collar workers can make a decent living, but obviously if you want better you need to be a professional.

No disrespect, but having been to the US it definitely felt like a step backwards to Australia. I mean, the people are great and the culture is amazing, but the US is really behind Australia when it comes to standard of living, healthcare, crime etc. I mean, my impression of the US was pretty much that it was a poorer and more developmentally stunted version of Australia.

 

[isildurrrr1]

ATAR

The HSC is your high school diploma/examination. The ATAR is essentially the percentile you score in on the overall ranking of every student in Australia. Think of it like the AP exams (not in difficulty but in length, time and date) where you essentially could only take it once unless you redo last year of high school or go through TAFE (community college/vocational education). It's one of the most stressful thing for a high school student because if they fuck up it wrecks their chances of getting into their university.

University

The applications here are simpler and a lot let holistic than the USA. It's all based on ATAR. That's it, no personal essays, no extracurriculars would save your ass. They're only interested in pure academics only. Don't trust the SAT to ATAR equivilent because it's skewed heavily towards the SAT. a 1600 SAT is not the same as an 80 ATAR, it should be much lower than that.

Private Vs. Public

Think Australia like california without stanford. All our public uni's are at the top of their game, nobody really goes to a private institution since they have 0 prestige and a lot are seen as degree mills.

Grades at University

Here's where it gets really weird. You can't think things as on a GPA scale with A's Bs and Cs. Here most things are based off your raw marks or WAM. essentially a Distinction is an A for all intents and purposes and a Credit would be a B or B+ depending on the raw mark you get. 65 is a Credit and a 75 is a Distinction. See the problem? The spread is way too far.

White vs Blue Collar

Google the term "cashed up bogan." Lot's of blue collar jobs pay really well due to the lack of labour demand for most things. You can pull bank as a panel beater or construction worker but it isn't exactly easy work either.

 

[7neoxis1337]

Can't answer everything, I don't think anyone can ^^. Can only give my personal experiences.
High Distinction/ Distinction?
Like someone said above, grades are super weird here.
GPA: 50 = Pass(C to C+), 65=Credit(B to B+), 75= Distinction(A), 85= High Distinction(A+).
A distinction is basically an A in a lot of the subjects/units that I do (Mostly science related) and a HD is reserved for really smart/talented kids at that particular subject. The issue with GPA is that it's range is super wide, so on paper, a 65 Credit is the same as a 74 Credit for a particular subject. Although you need to take into account the relative difficulty of one subject to another to better judge and compare GPA. (I have a 3rd year friend who got around a High credit average for Engineering Mathematics but absolutely steamrolled Accounting and getting HD due to the relative difficulty gap between the two subjects)
WAM: It's just the average of your marks and is generally more accurate as an academic assessment tool compared to GPA.

Overall ranking of Sydney or Australian Universities? What about specific fields for Universities in Sydney?
Generally university ranking in Australia is based on research so It doesn't really mean much at an undergrad level, just go for the one that's most convenient for you.
But roughly speaking in Sydney its UNSW > USYD > MQU/UTS (for pure ranking) and in NSW its UNSW/ANU > USYD > MQU/UTS.
From speaking to people, it would seems that:
USYD: Law, business
UTS: Engineering, IT
UNSW: Business, Engineering, Sciences.
MQU: Sciences, Actuary, Psychology.
ACU: Education

Public/Private Universities?
I don't think anyone even goes to Private university /sarcasm.
In seriousness most of the public unis are quite equal so there isn't a need for private ones.

Secondary Ed
I think a lot of people go dual degree because it's just efficient, and it also allows people to reach out and have broader insights than just their field of focus.
Not sure if Second Ed at MQU is any good but my ex said that It was good at ACU.

Is Law popular?
Law is super popular for those that can get in those courses in the first place. (Although almost all of my friends, a lot of them with 92 + Atar all went to Engineering, only 1 went to LAW, probably an Asian thing). But don't go into Law without the connections required, I've heard horror stories of people simply not being able to find a job after finishing their degree because the Law market is so saturated.

Source: 2nd year Mechanical Engineering & Physics @ MQU with friends at UNSW, USYD, UTS and UWS for insights.

 

[sirable1]

UNSW: Engineering, Business/Commerce, Science
USYD: Law, Arts, Medicine
UTS: Communications
MQU: Actuary

 

[isildurrrr1]

Dude UNSW law is topping out everyone else. ATAR cut offs are higher for UNSW than U syd law. U syd is purely banking on history. I got offers from UNSW and U Syd I just think UNSW has a better set up and infrastructure. They're emulating a lot on what Harvard's law faculty does.

 

[JasonG123]

Dude UNSW law is topping out everyone else. ATAR cut offs are higher for UNSW than U syd law. U syd is purely banking on history. I got offers from UNSW and U Syd I just think UNSW has a better set up and infrastructure. They're emulating a lot on what Harvard's law faculty does.

Basing law school choice on ATAR cut-offs *facepalm*.

Both UNSW and Usyd's ATAR cut-offs for law are artificially high. They both allow way too many transfers and too few straight out of school, Usyd is somewhat correcting this by lowering the cut-off (doesn't actually reflect a change in either supply or demand). Imo this will actually improve the quality of the cohort since a person getting 99.5-99.65 is on average substantially smarter than a person with a 90 ATAR and a 75-80 WAM in first year Commerce/Arts. UNSW's is also artificially high because it allows bonus points for leadership, Duke of Ed etc. Imo, both should be lowered to ~99-99.3, then at least it would be as hard to transfer as it is to get into the course in the first place.

High Distinction/ Distinction?
Okay, how do you translate these...grades/marks to the American system of A, B, C, D, F? Is it even possible?

There's no exact equivalent in Australia. At most NSW unis, 50 is a pass, 65 is a credit, 75 is a distinction and 85 is a high distinction, which are all different grades than required to get an A, B etc.

Overall ranking of Sydney or Australian Universities? What about specific fields for Universities in Sydney?
I know Sydney has quite a few universities. I think the general conception is that University of Sydney is the overall best? Is that an accurate statement? Is their a generally accepted tier list of the universities based on overall prestige and excellence? Curious where MQ ranks.

Ivy League equivalent?
I found the answer a half hour ago while constructing this post, lol! I believe Go8 is the equivalent, although, internationally I don't think University of Melbourne exactly ranks as high as Harvard or Oxford. (Correct me if I'm wrong. I'm also assuming University of Melbourne is the best in all of Australia)

In NSW it's generally thought that Usyd=UNSW>UTS=UMaq>UWS. However, there is no great distinction between the top unis and the lower ranked unis in Australia like there is in the US. Your university will generally only matter if you want to get into very competitive areas (Law, IBD, MC, overseas postgrad).

Australian unis generally tend to rank nowhere near to places like Harvard and Oxford. However in certain areas (like law) they more than hold their own.

Is Law popular?
I've wandered around a couple university subforums and there are many people who inquire about law. Are professional degrees in demand? Here in the United States, the field of law has become very saturated and unfortunately, it's becoming common to hear people pay $100k USD only to not have a job afterwards. So now, they just swim with their loans and try to make ends meet. Unless you're in a very specific field of law, like tax law. Then you'll need a forklift to deliver your money, lol! (Kidding, but, it's lucrative)

The situation is just as bad in Australia with regards to law being saturated (amount of law schools has risen from 12 to like 30 in last twenty years), however the level of debt here wouldn't be quite as bad since university fees are more regulated.

And while we're on professional degrees, what's it like to become a doctor/physician in Australia? Here in the U.S, it's 4 years of bachelors, MCAT exam, 4 years of Med school, then 3 years of residency generally. You're finally a general physician. More years of residency/fellowship if you want to specialise.

You can either do a 5 year undergrad (though it's 6 in some places due to an additional research year), or you can do a 3 undergrad and a 4 post-grad. I think after that you have to do a 1 year internship, 1 year residency and 2 years GP registrar work (someone can correct me if I'm wrong here). So that would be 9-11 years all up to be a GP, more to specialise obviously.

 

[isildurrrr1]

JasonG: Current situation is UNSW and U Melbourne are making major institutional changes to be ahead of the game. U Syd is lagging behind that department. Undergrad law is probably going to disappear altogether in the near future especially if the fees deregulation doesn't pass.

edit: the way I see it, whichever uni gives their grades the best pay wins. UNSW on top of the game.

 

[JasonG123]

JasonG: Current situation is UNSW and U Melbourne are making major institutional changes to be ahead of the game. U Syd is lagging behind that department. Undergrad law is probably going to disappear altogether in the near future especially if the fees deregulation doesn't pass.

What exactly are these nebulous institutional changes?

edit: the way I see it, whichever uni gives their grades the best pay wins. UNSW on top of the game.

This is almost as bad a mechanism of ranking law schools as ranking them by ATAR admission. It almost certainly reflects correlation and not causation e.g. Usyd Arts faculty has a better reputation, so more Arts/Law students will go to Usyd than UNSW. These Arts/Law students might be more interested in working in a non-profit, Government, research etc where they will earn less than a standard Comm/law student aiming for IBD. Take the same student and place them in Usyd or UNSW Law and there will be no difference to their salary.

 

[enoilgam]

Think Australia like california without stanford. All our public uni's are at the top of their game, nobody really goes to a private institution since they have 0 prestige and a lot are seen as degree mills.

Only true for areas like Law and maybe IB or MBB. But those are just perceptions, realistically, uni prestige does not strongly correlate to the quality of degree programs. The quality of the cohort does differ dramatically though.

 

[isildurrrr1]

What exactly are these nebulous institutional changes?



This is almost as bad a mechanism of ranking law schools as ranking them by ATAR admission. It almost certainly reflects correlation and not causation e.g. Usyd Arts faculty has a better reputation, so more Arts/Law students will go to Usyd than UNSW. These Arts/Law students might be more interested in working in a non-profit, Government, research etc where they will earn less than a standard Comm/law student aiming for IBD. Take the same student and place them in Usyd or UNSW Law and there will be no difference to their salary.

The way they're setting up lectures vs seminar and focusing on more practical stuff. UNSW is moving towards more of a "Harvard style" law school. Institutionally I think for entrance an LSAT exam and higher GPA/ATAR requirements ala U Melbourne (and scrapping LLBs) is probably going to happen in the near future. The way marks work at U Syd is primarily based on exams' from what I've seen.

Realistically, both uni's are practically the same for all intense and purposes.

Enoiglam: You're more likely to find a more driven cohort at Go8 uni's since the ATAR requirements are much much higher compared to tier 2 uni's. Also international recognition matters quite a bit.

 

[enoilgam]

Enoiglam: You're more likely to find a more driven cohort at Go8 uni's since the ATAR requirements are much much higher compared to tier 2 uni's. Also international recognition matters quite a bit.

Definitely agree, especially on cohort. Although I dont think it is drive, because there were a few driven people at my uni. It's more a case of capability, because a lot of people at my uni worked hard, they just didnt have the skills to really succeed at a uni level.

 

[JasonG123]

The way they're setting up lectures vs seminar and focusing on more practical stuff. UNSW is moving towards more of a "Harvard style" law school. Institutionally I think for entrance an LSAT exam and higher GPA/ATAR requirements ala U Melbourne (and scrapping LLBs) is probably going to happen in the near future. The way marks work at U Syd is primarily based on exams' from what I've seen.

Realistically, both uni's are practically the same for all intense and purposes.

UNSW has always focused on seminars whereas Usyd has always had lectures + tutorials, no real changes there. The perception is that Usyd is more theoretical, but many people (myself included) prefer a theoretical style of teaching, so this is really a matter of personal preference. Either way, comparing anything in Australia to Harvard, even in 'style' is pretty meaningless. Usyd normally has a larger weighting for the final exam (usually 60-70% final exam, 20-30% mid-semester assignment and 10% class participation), but again this is really a matter of personal preference.

I can't imagine why either Usyd or UNSW would scrap the LLB. If one scrapped it, then all high-school leavers would immediately go to the other one (since as you said they are practically the same), losing quite abit of revenue. This was not the situation in Victoria since UniMelb was viewed as superior to Monash.

But enough of derailing this thread.

 

[pHyRe]

Dude UNSW law is topping out everyone else. ATAR cut offs are higher for UNSW than U syd law. U syd is purely banking on history. I got offers from UNSW and U Syd I just think UNSW has a better set up and infrastructure. They're emulating a lot on what Harvard's law faculty does.

except that most people who go to UNSW law get bonus points. 2 points for duke of ed gold for example.

usyd law offers almost no bonus points, everyone i know there got 99.7+

 

[isildurrrr1]

I can't imagine why either Usyd or UNSW would scrap the LLB. If one scrapped it, then all high-school leavers would immediately go to the other one (since as you said they are practically the same), losing quite abit of revenue. This was not the situation in Victoria since UniMelb was viewed as superior to Monash.

$$$$$

You know how much it costs to subsidize law students? The Uni's are sick and tired of kid's enrolling in law because of a high ATAR and they drop out because they figured it wasn't for them.

The Uni deregulation won't pass any time soon. I think more uni's will move to a JD model especially unsw and u syd and they'll do it together. JD's have a higher retention rate because people do it because they want to, not because mommy and daddy told them to.

 

[JasonG123]

$$$$$

You know how much it costs to subsidize law students? The Uni's are sick and tired of kid's enrolling in law because of a high ATAR and they drop out because they figured it wasn't for them.

The Uni deregulation won't pass any time soon. I think more uni's will move to a JD model especially unsw and u syd and they'll do it together. JD's have a higher retention rate because people do it because they want to, not because mommy and daddy told them to.

My point in the above post is that if they scrapped the LLB they would lose money because the people who did it because they got in or because 'mommy and daddy told them to' as you say wouldn't enrol in it (90% of these people wouldn't do the JD). Additionally, as I said before there would be no reason for UNSW and Usyd to do it together. As soon as one switched to the JD, the other would have an incentive to retain the LLB to get all the students coming straight out of high school. Either way, I can't see why Unis would be sick and tired of kids enrolling in law because of a high ATAR, they openly try to attract these people.