Is zero an element of the Natural Numbers? (1 Viewer)

[Carrotsticks]

Discuss.

 

[iBibah]

From what I know there hasn't been an agreement on whether or not it is, though it is usually included due to convenience.

Haven't really thought about it much myself though.

 

[barbernator]

Discuss.

how many marks for a correct response?

 

[Carrotsticks]

The lowest Natural Number.

Oh wai-

 

[barbernator]

The lowest Natural Number.

Oh wai-

ahahahah

 

[barbernator]

well the add for weight watchers on this thread currently has a $0 joining fee, so it must be!

 

[iSplicer]

The lowest Natural Number.

Oh wai-

Oh, you.

 

[seanieg89]

Its usually convenient for it to be.

 

[Carrotsticks]

People may disagree, but this is what I think.

I consider Natural Numbers to be 'countable' numbers, hence 'natural'. For example, I can count 1 pens, 2 pens, 3 pens etc, but I can't have 1.5 pens, pi pens, or -3 pens.

However, I can have 0 pens.

So 0 is a Natural Number.

 

[RealiseNothing]

People may disagree, but this is what I think.

I consider Natural Numbers to be 'countable' numbers, hence 'natural'. For example, I can count 1 pens, 2 pens, 3 pens etc, but I can't have 1.5 pens, pi pens, or -3 pens.

However, I can have 0 pens.

So 0 is a Natural Number.

This was pretty much my first thought. I'm not 100% decided though on whether or not it should be included.

 

[enoilgam]

People may disagree, but this is what I think.

I consider Natural Numbers to be 'countable' numbers, hence 'natural'. For example, I can count 1 pens, 2 pens, 3 pens etc, but I can't have 1.5 pens, pi pens, or -3 pens.

However, I can have 0 pens.

So 0 is a Natural Number.

But zero describes a state of nothingness - zero to me is a neutral state, niether here nor there. Also, a natural number is used to rank things in addition to counting. You can have 1st or 2nd, but not 0th.

Honestly though you could do your head in thinking about this stuff, its kind of like the chicken and the egg

 

[seanieg89]

The issue is hardly a deep philosophical one... A natural number is just what we choose to define a natural number to be. There is no correct answer, and professional mathematicians use whichever convention is convenient. Their usage is usually pretty clear from context.

 

[mirakon]

maybe zero is a concept in the same way infinity is and not strictly speaking a "number"

 

[seanieg89]

"Number" itself is not a strict concept. Zero is certainly an integer in a very concrete strict sense.

 

[lolcakes52]

Yes, and basically for the same reason as carrotsticks. Let's say I'm incredibly rich and have 5 hovercraft's, if I now go and count how many hovercraft's Kim Kardashian has then I can either say zero or I can stand their dumbfounded at an apparent lexical gap. I like the first option more than the second. I think it is important to remember that we used numbers for convenience first, not to prove the reinman hypothesis or whatever. It is convenient to have a zero when counting, which is essentially what we use natural numbers for.

 

[Shadowdude]

I think: yes.

 

[math man]

Florica accepts it, therefore I accept it,
But different countries differ