Desperately need advice from 3/4/5 year Law students (2 Viewers)

[andyfg88]

Hi all,





I'm becoming increasingly nervous about this year (see attachment). A lot of this has to do with the nature of the courses I'm going to be doing, things I've heard about them from other students, particularly about Frank and Business Organisations and International Law. And also because of the amount of work involved in them and my struggle to get more than just Credits.


I want to finish asap, but I want to also do well. I currently have a LAW GPA of 3 and I want to maintain or improve it as much as possible... I'm terrified of doing four law subjects in a semester especially ones of such varying difficultly - as you can see in the attachment there are some 200 and some 400 in there. I've never been one to aim for just passes... so my question is: do you think that this workload is too much? Will it jeopardise my GPA or ability to do well? Should I drop down to 3 units a semester... this has the ultimate effect of extending my degree completion by a whole year. Can you guys think of any alternatives?

Any advice would be much appreciated...


Thanks!

 

[Atlas]

Firstly, relax It is possible to do four law units in a semester and lots of other students do end up doing four law units. Having said that, if you are aiming for credit or higher, do expect to do a lot of work and to have some assessments due at around the same time. You just need to have good study habits, stick to your study plans and plan ahead.

It's hard to give advice on whether you should drop down to 3 units or stay with the 4 units, this is ultimately something that you will find out when you do 4 units and see how you cope with the workload. (Do you currently work as well? If yes, will your manager give you some time off before exams? Alternatively, how do you function with minimal sleep?)

Your first semester isn't bad; 208 is not conceptually difficult, 314 (if Kelly is still teaching it) is not difficult since it should allow you to focus your attention on a few specific areas of constitutional law in your assessments and Kelly's notes are brilliant and her published guide book is worth buying. 316 has a fair bit of content to get through each week, but the content isn't too abstract so it is manageable, and if Shayne is teaching it, so long as you follow her lectures and go to the tutes + some study on your part = a credit should be manageable. 459, the subject can be fluffy and *hint hint* be prepared to do work on your part, depending on the assessment structure - focus on some areas for your assessments.

After your first semester, you will have a better idea of how you cope with 4 law units - then decide whether you want to drop down to 3 in your second semester. Your second semester's subjects are harder than your first, but not impossible and in a way, getting jurisprudence and business organisations out of the way is good. (315 and 471 shouldn't be too difficult; 315 = similar to 316, 471 = content heavy with lots of cases but if Shayne is teaching it, just do your part and you will be fine).

 

[andyfg88]

Firstly, relax It is possible to do four law units in a semester and lots of other students do end up doing four law units. Having said that, if you are aiming for credit or higher, do expect to do a lot of work and to have some assessments due at around the same time. You just need to have good study habits, stick to your study plans and plan ahead.

It's hard to give advice on whether you should drop down to 3 units or stay with the 4 units, this is ultimately something that you will find out when you do 4 units and see how you cope with the workload. (Do you currently work as well? If yes, will your manager give you some time off before exams? Alternatively, how do you function with minimal sleep?)

Your first semester isn't bad; 208 is not conceptually difficult, 314 (if Kelly is still teaching it) is not difficult since it should allow you to focus your attention on a few specific areas of constitutional law in your assessments and Kelly's notes are brilliant and her published guide book is worth buying. 316 has a fair bit of content to get through each week, but the content isn't too abstract so it is manageable, and if Shayne is teaching it, so long as you follow her lectures and go to the tutes + some study on your part = a credit should be manageable. 459, the subject can be fluffy and *hint hint* be prepared to do work on your part, depending on the assessment structure - focus on some areas for your assessments.

After your first semester, you will have a better idea of how you cope with 4 law units - then decide whether you want to drop down to 3 in your second semester. Your second semester's subjects are harder than your first, but not impossible and in a way, getting jurisprudence and business organisations out of the way is good. (315 and 471 shouldn't be too difficult; 315 = similar to 316, 471 = content heavy with lots of cases but if Shayne is teaching it, just do your part and you will be fine).

Hi Atlas,

Thanks heaps for your reply!

From my past experience with law subjects...I usually spend about 12-14 hours or so a week on each subject. I don't work at the moment so that is not a possible. In terms of minimal sleep, well.... unfortunately I'm used to it... caffeine is my best friend.

As for Semester 1... LAW314 is not being bought by Kelly anymore it's being taught by Ian.. (according to the handbook) not sure how good he is or what his methods are like... any comments? For LAW314 Shayne is still teaching it and I've heard some really positive things about her, I've spoken to her on numerous occasions too. She is also teaching 471...

I really want to get Juris/business organisations and International out of the way, but I don't want to just "pass" them lol.. maybe I'm asking for a bit much... I don't know..

Can you elaborate a bit on 459 and Business Orgs? What exactly am I up for here with the two lecturers... I'm yet to hear one positive thing about the course/lecturer form anyone, most people just tell me "wait and you'll see".

 

[andyfg88]

as atlas said you need to relax! your situation isnt as bad as you think.

i don't think international law is as bad as some people think - attend the lecture, buy the dixon textbook (theres another recommended textbook but you really only need to "fill the gap" of the dixon textbook when you are doing assignments) and you will be ok for that unit. if the assessment structure hasn't changed you only need to keep up to date with lectures for first half of the semester (to do a hypothetical) and after that you only need to attend lectures that you are interested in (to do the final essay). and some recommended/prescribed readings aren't available in the library and you need to see the convener in person for that but dw about doing it unless its relevant to your assignment.

iain isn't the best lecturer but in a way i prefer iain over margaret (her lectures always put me to sleep and her lecture notes are 40 pages+/lec so it was hard to grasp what was really important). but the quality of the lecturer is kind of not that important because assessment structure consists of 2 essays - and for essays research is more important... i think.

bus org is a hard unit (not the content but because of the lecturer) but i dont think theres anything you can do about it given that its compulsory. all i can say is keep up with weekly readings and lectures and don't try to hide because i think these are the reasons why the convenor picked on me in almost every single class. it's kind of hard to tell you how to do well in the unit ... i still haven't figured it out. maybe others can help you out.

and if you are worried about workload the best thing you can do is to form a small study group to do assignments, prepare exam notes etc... it saves you a lot of time (the sooner you start the better). also another thing you can consider is to swap commercial law with something cruisey-er? like dispute res or international trade & finance (no final exam!). but i think you can do it!

lol... I'm trying to relax.. I guess I just don't wanna fail/not do well.

So for International Law, you're saying that I should really just focus on the lectures leading up to the hypothetical and the ones relevant to the essay topic that I decide to tackle?

Margaret's lecture style sounds a bit like Archana who I had for Foundations. Her lectures were something ridiculous like 30-50 slides per lecture and she literally just stood there for two hours and read them out slide by slide. Do you think that given that there has been a change of hands in who is convening the course, the assignment/unit structure will change?

I wouldn't mind forming a small group, the only thing is I don't really know anyone and the people I do know are all at different stages of their law degrees - some are just starting 2nd year, others are going into fourth year..

On a side note, does anyone have any unit outlines that they wouldn't mind sharing for any of the units i'm enrolled in or any of these:

- Dispute Resolution
- Advanced Torts
- Information Technology Law
- Family Law
- Trade Practices
- Competition and Consumer Law
- Intellectual Property
- Succession

I'm curious to how they have been run in the past, it might also give me a good insight to help me decide what to do.

Also does anyone know how the law school decides what units it will run in the summer?

 

[Atlas]

Hi Atlas,

Thanks heaps for your reply!

From my past experience with law subjects...I usually spend about 12-14 hours or so a week on each subject. I don't work at the moment so that is not a possible. In terms of minimal sleep, well.... unfortunately I'm used to it... caffeine is my best friend.

As for Semester 1... LAW314 is not being bought by Kelly anymore it's being taught by Ian.. (according to the handbook) not sure how good he is or what his methods are like... any comments? For LAW314 Shayne is still teaching it and I've heard some really positive things about her, I've spoken to her on numerous occasions too. She is also teaching 471...

I really want to get Juris/business organisations and International out of the way, but I don't want to just "pass" them lol.. maybe I'm asking for a bit much... I don't know..

Can you elaborate a bit on 459 and Business Orgs? What exactly am I up for here with the two lecturers... I'm yet to hear one positive thing about the course/lecturer form anyone, most people just tell me "wait and you'll see".

Good, if you don't work at the moment, it definitely helps so does the ability to live on little sleep.

Both Kelly and Iain are about the same, but I found Kelly's extensive notes really help (great starting point for showing you what resources to look for in essays etc). If you can, try shopping around different tutorials, I did that for constitutional law and found that one of the casual tutors was the best at explaining it in a simple and easy to understand way.

Shayne - rest assured, so long as you keep up with lectures and tutorials and do some study on your part - you will be fine.

Seriously, most students have little idea what it takes to get decent marks in jurisprudence or business organisations - it's not one of those units where the more effort and work you put in, the higher your mark. So don't put too much expectation on them.

HAHAHAHAHA yes, "wait and you'll see"!!!! Especially for Business Organisations - legendary figure for Macquarie law kids

 

[andyfg88]

Good, if you don't work at the moment, it definitely helps so does the ability to live on little sleep.

Both Kelly and Iain are about the same, but I found Kelly's extensive notes really help (great starting point for showing you what resources to look for in essays etc). If you can, try shopping around different tutorials, I did that for constitutional law and found that one of the casual tutors was the best at explaining it in a simple and easy to understand way.

Shayne - rest assured, so long as you keep up with lectures and tutorials and do some study on your part - you will be fine.

Seriously, most students have little idea what it takes to get decent marks in jurisprudence or business organisations - it's not one of those units where the more effort and work you put in, the higher your mark. So don't put too much expectation on them.

HAHAHAHAHA yes, "wait and you'll see"!!!! Especially for Business Organisations - legendary figure for Macquarie law kids

Haha yeah the "wait and you'll see" doesn't really do much to help reassure anyone!

On Juris and Business Orgs... I've heard this also, most people are happy to just "pass" and the people I've heard this from are generally quite high achievers... My biggest fear is to invest too much time in them in fear that I might fail them and then actually fail them or not do as well as I could have in the other subjects because I'd spent so much time on those two..

Did you do any of these last year (2011), any chance you could send me the Unit Guide(s)?

 

[Atlas]

Haha yeah the "wait and you'll see" doesn't really do much to help reassure anyone!

On Juris and Business Orgs... I've heard this also, most people are happy to just "pass" and the people I've heard this from are generally quite high achievers... My biggest fear is to invest too much time in them in fear that I might fail them and then actually fail them or not do as well as I could have in the other subjects because I'd spent so much time on those two..

Did you do any of these last year (2011), any chance you could send me the Unit Guide(s)?

LOL perhaps that's because law students don't want to assure you about that unit, instead that want to give you a heads up to beware

Yes, most students would just be glad to have the two units over - there are many units where you have a fair idea of what the assessments and markers want from you and your final mark simply reflects the amount of effort you put in. Well, jurisprudence and business organisations are not one of those units. For business organisations, the content isn't difficult and it's just the usual reading of cases and understanding principles, but I personally chose to only put sufficient effort in it whilst concentrating on the other subjects to at least neutralise the damage from business organisations to the GPA. Put it this way - you go in there with a mindset of damage control rather than expecting a D or HD from those two units.

(I think Succession was offered every two years, so I am not sure if it was offered last year) Of those units, I only have IP Law.. currently trying to find the attach a file feature...

 

[Atlas]

View attachment Unit Outline.doc Found!

 

[andyfg88]

LOL perhaps that's because law students don't want to assure you about that unit, instead that want to give you a heads up to beware

Yes, most students would just be glad to have the two units over - there are many units where you have a fair idea of what the assessments and markers want from you and your final mark simply reflects the amount of effort you put in. Well, jurisprudence and business organisations are not one of those units. For business organisations, the content isn't difficult and it's just the usual reading of cases and understanding principles, but I personally chose to only put sufficient effort in it whilst concentrating on the other subjects to at least neutralise the damage from business organisations to the GPA. Put it this way - you go in there with a mindset of damage control rather than expecting a D or HD from those two units.

(I think Succession was offered every two years, so I am not sure if it was offered last year) Of those units, I only have IP Law.. currently trying to find the attach a file feature...

I think this is what I'm going to try to do... I just need to not get any passes and my GPA will stay at 3.00 - I think I can manage this.. I hope I can...

View attachment 24114 Found!

Much appreciated, I shall rep you again as soon as I can.. at the moment it won't let me.. Gotta spread the love apparently..

PS: How did you find this unit overall? Would you recommend it?

 

[Atlas]

I think this is what I'm going to try to do... I just need to not get any passes and my GPA will stay at 3.00 - I think I can manage this.. I hope I can...



Much appreciated, I shall rep you again as soon as I can.. at the moment it won't let me.. Gotta spread the love apparently..

PS: How did you find this unit overall? Would you recommend it?

It depends on whether you are interested in the subject - I didn't really fall in love with the subject, but the cases were interesting and got you thinking about issues around what should be owned and the reason for protecting ownership etc. Overall, if the lecturer is the same, Niloufer is very VERY VERY organised, she posts all the lecture notes, readings etc at the beginning of the semester so if you are the type that likes to do all your work at the beginning to get it out of the way, you will love this unit. The unit is also structured very well and every topic flows, overall the subject and the assessments are not difficult and your final mark reflects your effort and time rather than the difficulty of the subject.

Yes, I try to rep people and it gives me the same message too

 

[andyfg88]

It depends on whether you are interested in the subject - I didn't really fall in love with the subject, but the cases were interesting and got you thinking about issues around what should be owned and the reason for protecting ownership etc. Overall, if the lecturer is the same, Niloufer is very VERY VERY organised, she posts all the lecture notes, readings etc at the beginning of the semester so if you are the type that likes to do all your work at the beginning to get it out of the way, you will love this unit. The unit is also structured very well and every topic flows, overall the subject and the assessments are not difficult and your final mark reflects your effort and time rather than the difficulty of the subject.

Yes, I try to rep people and it gives me the same message too

I know its emerging as a pretty crucial area of law, especially given that a lot of the world's major corporations today (i.e. Apple) depend on such laws to protect their property. I just don't know how interested I actually am. I know I am interested in this stuff, it's just a matter of how much....

The Pros and Cons seem to balance themselves out:

- It's offered only in semester 2 which means if I don't do it before my last year it could hold me back a semester (negative)
- It has a take home exam (Pro)
- I don't know how interested I am, all I know is that there is no other elective I would want to do in its place. (Pro/Negativee)

I'm really just looking to cruise through my electives... I don't want to be overly challenged at that point I guess...

 

[Atlas]

I know its emerging as a pretty crucial area of law, especially given that a lot of the world's major corporations today (i.e. Apple) depend on such laws to protect their property. I just don't know how interested I actually am. I know I am interested in this stuff, it's just a matter of how much....

The Pros and Cons seem to balance themselves out:

- It's offered only in semester 2 which means if I don't do it before my last year it could hold me back a semester (negative)
- It has a take home exam (Pro)
- I don't know how interested I am, all I know is that there is no other elective I would want to do in its place. (Pro/Negativee)

I'm really just looking to cruise through my electives... I don't want to be overly challenged at that point I guess...

Fair enough, I was sort of interested in the subject but found that the technical aspects of IP didn't really interest me. Overall, it's a well-run unit with good feedback, and yes, take-home exams are always a plus!

Ah! So you have hit that point in your law studies where you just want to cruise to the finish

 

[andyfg88]

Fair enough, I was sort of interested in the subject but found that the technical aspects of IP didn't really interest me. Overall, it's a well-run unit with good feedback, and yes, take-home exams are always a plus!

Ah! So you have hit that point in your law studies where you just want to cruise to the finish

Yup, but I want to cruise through and do well - is that too much to ask? ahahha

What electives would you highly recommend?

 

[Atlas]

Not too much, many law students ask for the same thing

I don't have a particular unit code in mind - but here's some tips:
- the easiest/cruisey type: any unit where the final assessment is a research essay (the best would be ones with no limit on your choice of topics, or at least a fairly long list of topics to choose from)
- okay/cruisey: take-home exams (make sure the percentage is significant)
- always try to check the assessment structure and beware that some convenors know about law kids who want cruisey subjects hence they deliberately change their units regularly.

 

[andyfg88]

Not too much, many law students ask for the same thing

I don't have a particular unit code in mind - but here's some tips:
- the easiest/cruisey type: any unit where the final assessment is a research essay (the best would be ones with no limit on your choice of topics, or at least a fairly long list of topics to choose from)
- okay/cruisey: take-home exams (make sure the percentage is significant)
- always try to check the assessment structure and beware that some convenors know about law kids who want cruisey subjects hence they deliberately change their units regularly.

Thanks for that, as a sort of side question... How important do you think your choice of electives are when looking for jobs? Are there specific no-go/go-to zones in terms of electives for Top-tier firms and others for boutique or small firms?

I only ask because your ahead of me lol so I figure you'd know more

 

[Atlas]

Thanks for that, as a sort of side question... How important do you think your choice of electives are when looking for jobs? Are there specific no-go/go-to zones in terms of electives for Top-tier firms and others for boutique or small firms?

I only ask because your ahead of me lol so I figure you'd know more

I didn't plan on becoming a lawyer so I can't answer your question based on experience. From what I hear from other law students and graduates is that:
- some students tried to pick subjects that complemented their intended area of specialisation or if they had a specific firm etc in mind, they tried to pick subjects that matched the areas that the firm focused on
- many graduates ended up regreting their choice after working because they said a) uni subjects didn't match or help with actual legal work and b) they would have rather used the uni electives to explore some of their interests before they had to start working
- you would rather pick units where you can get good marks, so that you can keep a good GPA
- rather than trying to pick certain units, get experience - do competitions, clerkships, legal placements

Since I can't verify whether the above is correct, take it all with a pinch of salt

 

[andyfg88]

I didn't plan on becoming a lawyer so I can't answer your question based on experience. From what I hear from other law students and graduates is that:
- some students tried to pick subjects that complemented their intended area of specialisation or if they had a specific firm etc in mind, they tried to pick subjects that matched the areas that the firm focused on
- many graduates ended up regreting their choice after working because they said a) uni subjects didn't match or help with actual legal work and b) they would have rather used the uni electives to explore some of their interests before they had to start working
- you would rather pick units where you can get good marks, so that you can keep a good GPA
- rather than trying to pick certain units, get experience - do competitions, clerkships, legal placements

Since I can't verify whether the above is correct, take it all with a pinch of salt

Thanks for the advice I really wish MQ had an integrated PLT program

 

[sean1990]

without reading all the above because I can't be bothered I'll give you my 2 cents:
LAW208- easy to get a C
LAW314- pain in the arse, Ian is a truely terrible tutor/lecturer and if you can write good essays you will get a C or D- and you only need to learn 1/4 of the content.
LAW316- interesting subject, good concepts similar to contract but a bit harder and taught by an excellent tutor (Shayne)- should be able to get a C quite easily
LAW459- haven't done this unit

sem 2-
LAW214- will bore you to death, difficult theoretical subject but if you can stick with it and write well you can get a C rather easily I think.
LAW315- excellent subject- very interesting if taught by Margaret but I'm unaware whether she will be back (she is taking time off). this unit will take alot of work, closed book exam (except 2 pages of notes) but realistically if you keep with it a C is not that difficult
LAW456- heard this is really hard- I havent done it though
LAW471- doing this now, not very difficult, quite similar to property and shouldnt be too hard to get a C.

session 3-
LAW317- wouldn't touch this over session 3 if Radan is taking the unit. you will struggle to get a good mark IMHO.

I think taking the units above will be okay if you want credits but I mean, it'll take alot of work to even get them. you have to consider clerkships too, and the fact is your first 3 1/2 years of law school matters the most as these marks will appear on your transcript when you apply- and this has become the recruitment process for all law firms (or a large number).

so in saying all of that, I really wouldn't rush. your GPA at the moment is not good enough for private practice (mid-top)- sorry to be harsh but it is fair. As an absolute minimum and I mean absolute, you really do need a high credit average if you want to get into a top tier or mid tier, and even then you'll find it incredibly difficult unless you have some amazing extra-curriculars. I do not mean to scare you, but lets face it, if you take on 3 law units instead of 4 and take it slowly, you will improve your marks and improve your chances of employment.

 

[andyfg88]

without reading all the above because I can't be bothered I'll give you my 2 cents:
LAW208- easy to get a C
LAW314- pain in the arse, Ian is a truely terrible tutor/lecturer and if you can write good essays you will get a C or D- and you only need to learn 1/4 of the content.
LAW316- interesting subject, good concepts similar to contract but a bit harder and taught by an excellent tutor (Shayne)- should be able to get a C quite easily
LAW459- haven't done this unit

sem 2-
LAW214- will bore you to death, difficult theoretical subject but if you can stick with it and write well you can get a C rather easily I think.
LAW315- excellent subject- very interesting if taught by Margaret but I'm unaware whether she will be back (she is taking time off). this unit will take alot of work, closed book exam (except 2 pages of notes) but realistically if you keep with it a C is not that difficult
LAW456- heard this is really hard- I havent done it though
LAW471- doing this now, not very difficult, quite similar to property and shouldnt be too hard to get a C.

session 3-
LAW317- wouldn't touch this over session 3 if Radan is taking the unit. you will struggle to get a good mark IMHO.

I think taking the units above will be okay if you want credits but I mean, it'll take alot of work to even get them. you have to consider clerkships too, and the fact is your first 3 1/2 years of law school matters the most as these marks will appear on your transcript when you apply- and this has become the recruitment process for all law firms (or a large number).

so in saying all of that, I really wouldn't rush. your GPA at the moment is not good enough for private practice (mid-top)- sorry to be harsh but it is fair. As an absolute minimum and I mean absolute, you really do need a high credit average if you want to get into a top tier or mid tier, and even then you'll find it incredibly difficult unless you have some amazing extra-curriculars. I do not mean to scare you, but lets face it, if you take on 3 law units instead of 4 and take it slowly, you will improve your marks and improve your chances of employment.

Thanks for your advice. It's been very constructive and helpful. I guess I will seriously consider dropping a law unit in both semester one and two this year - its just a matter of which one. I mean the most obvious ones to drop, I suppose, would be two 400 level units (International and Business Orgs) but I really wanted to get them out of the way! Oh well.

As for LAW317 in session 3.. Peter is taking it, Im not expecting to do overly well he seems like a pretty tough marker - today is the last day.

Thanks again for the input.

 

[andyfg88]

Just bumping this....

Okay so it's almost half way through the first semester and I have never felt so pressured in my whole academic life. I'm going to drop a subject in favour of doing it in another semester when the workload is a little less...

Can someone give me advice on the following three subjects:

- Remedies
- Litigation
- Competition and Consumer Law

I realise that these are predominantly final year subjects, but would I be hindering myself If I attempted to do them and some third year subjects together? Are they conceptually difficult or is it just a matter of work load (readings etc...)? Also any indication of what the assessment structure is... i.e exam/essay or essay/essay etc...

Thanks!