Who supports the Green's initiative to abolish university fees? (3 Viewers)

[Rothbard]

The greens policies are mostly good. Economics is clearly their weak point however.

Economic liberty and social liberty are one and the same. They all revolve around property.

 

[Rothbard]

There is a gaping hole in all the rhetoric and squabbling over a mining superprofits tax. Mining used to be far more beneficial to Australia. Mining operations relied on local communities for servicing and labour, on local manufacturing operations for heavy equipment, fabrication, construction and other trade skills. Things have changed. How many of you have been to a mine recently? Recent changes in technology and improved logistics, as well as surging commodity prices, have prompted concentration of heavy equipment construction, to countries like Germany and Korea who are characterised and indeed praised for their active industrial policy. Fabrication and construction are almost completely relegated to incredibly cheap Chinese operations: pre-fab residential and site office buildings are now the norm, built and assembled in China. This mining boom is increasingly bypassing local labour (this doesn't mean that local employment isn't rising).

But what of the labour that isn't being bypassed? Trade and mining-related employment wages have surged, driving the formation of a "two speed economy". There's no doubt we had a skills shortage before the mining boom took off; the mining boom is only making it worse. The RBA's manipulation of interest rates are increasingly being seen as being forced to halt the surge of the mining and commodities based economy while everyone else (see; small business owners, mortgaged households, even the 4 Pillars to a degree due to cost of funds) suffers. This is almost exactly what happened to the manufacturing sector after the Hawke/Keating economic restructuring. The sequel to the "recession we had to have" is the "boom we had to have". Over a hundred thousand workers suffered long term unemployment after the economic restructuring, and it took a whole lot of effort to rectify (and, lamentably, conceal) this problem. What will be the result of the boom we had to have?

I don't know how much of this I believe, whether it's really as bad as it seems, or whether it will work itself out. It is merely my own thoughts, and those of other Important International Businessmen and forward thinking, gentlemanly scholars. Perhaps we should be more cautious about international investment in resources (although there are a lot of provisions for the local economy in international agreements anyways). Perhaps coal will be a dirty word in 20 years and we need to milk the cow while it's still alive. Can China's insatiable demand for our resources absorb the consequences of a super profits tax? Or, as Hayek says, do we overestimate future means and underestimate future needs?

edit: oh and I don't know about overestimating the mining sector's responsibility for "saving us from the financial crisis". Let's not forget we had a solid and low public debt (thanks Keating, Costello and Howard) and a hit the ground running when the crisis hit. Financial markets exhibited little to no anxiety about the financial position of the Australian economy, of Australian consumers and households, nor of the Australian government. It is for this reason alone that they did not savage us like they have Europe, the US (to a lesser extent) and parts of Asia. Where's the praise for our (thankfully few and strong) domestic banks, our financial regulators, and the admonishment of fickle financial markets?

doubleedit: oh yeah and the greens are horrible, the only purpose they serve is to counter opposing retards (Christian Democrats etc) and make some nominal political pushes

Don't forget http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dutch_disease

 

[funkshen]

ugh the Dutch

 

[SylviaB]

granted that perhaps spending on university students is unnecessary...but you cant truly believe that the mining companies contribute to our society?

Of course they do. They're the only thing stopping us from having massive trade deficits. Do you honestly not understand why you can't have an economy that buys a ton of shit from overseas but doesn't sell anything?

The mining CEOs are billionaires...they actually make so much money its been labeled 'super profits'...The image below shows how much money these corporations make, against their tax.
The mining companies do very little to contribute to Australian society, in fact their low taxation is counter-productive to australia's well being, as reported by the Daily Telegraph.

Rich people having money is good, because they either invest it or put it into savings which go towards investment. Without this capital accumulation there could be nowhere near the productive activity that we have today that we owe our prosperity to.

I really dont understand how anyone can assume that increased taxation of the major mining companies would hurt Australia. We should follow the Nordic countries and issue tax as a means to achieve social objectives, such as redistribution of income, reduction in alcohol and tobacco consumption, and as a disincentive against certain behaviors.

How about go fuck yourself and mind your own business.

 

[byebyebye]

Rich people having money is good, because they either invest it or put it into savings which go towards investment. Without this capital accumulation there could be nowhere near the productive activity that we have today that we owe our prosperity to.

In the place of one large corporation, hundreds of small businesses could flourish. The economic contribution of one man buying a ferrari would be the same as ten people purchasing normal cars. If the ultra rich were prevented from amassing such wealth, it would be in the hands of those who deserve it and who would also put it to use. The investment and productivity occurs either way. The only question is who will reap the benefits. And it should be all of us. Not just an elite few.

Rather than mass capital accumulation, we should have capital distribution. The toiling masses deserve to reap the fruits of their labour.

 

[Phoenix Fury]

In the place of one large corporation, hundreds of small businesses could flourish. The economic contribution of one man buying a ferrari would be the same as ten people purchasing normal cars. If the ultra rich were prevented from amassing such wealth, it would be in the hands of those who deserve it and who would also put it to use. The investment and productivity occurs either way. The only question is who will reap the benefits. And it should be all of us. Not just an elite few.

Rather than mass capital accumulation, we should have capital distribution. The toiling masses deserve to reap the fruits of their labour.

And who exactly are "those who deserve it", and why do they deserve it?

Ugh, this collectivist shit is so abhorrently repulsing.

 

[Rothbard]

greens are confirmed mercantilists

 

[TacoTerrorist]

Get out of here Phoenix you dirtbag scumfuck Nazi mind-slave corporate tool cuntfucking ass-pirate. Your arbitrary defence of the wealthy elite capitalist scumfucks is abhorrently repulsive.

 

[Lentern]

Quite possibly my least favourite part of the greens policy platform. Paying for bright young things to get the qualifications to earn exorbitant amounts of money at the cost of the working man, that's not socialist it's gay. If they want to make it easier to build up employment credentials they'd be better off socialising things like forklift and runner licenses or even driving lessons.

 

[cosmo kramer]

Get out of here Phoenix you dirtbag scumfuck Nazi mind-slave corporate tool cuntfucking ass-pirate. Your arbitrary defence of the wealthy elite capitalist scumfucks is abhorrently repulsive.

why are the left such a bunch of bellicose thugs

 

[Rothbard]

Quite possibly my least favourite part of the greens policy platform. Paying for bright young things to get the qualifications to earn exorbitant amounts of money at the cost of the working man, that's not socialist it's gay. If they want to make it easier to build up employment credentials they'd be better off socialising things like forklift and runner licenses or even driving lessons.

Wholeheartedly agree with you on this one. The working class should not be paying for this, students should pay for their own university.

 

[davidbarnes]

Roll on the Greens further increasing their senate majority (4 new senators to add to their existing 6) later this year when the senate terms renew. You won't be able to pass a law (or repel or modify) in Australia without bending to the Greens (unless Liberal/Labor agreed which seems unlikely with catch phrase Tony as leader of the Liberals).

 

[moll.]

Roll on the Greens further increasing their senate majority (4 new senators to add to their existing 6) later this year when the senate terms renew. You won't be able to pass a law (or repel or modify) in Australia without bending to the Greens (unless Liberal/Labor agreed which seems unlikely with catch phrase Tony as leader of the Liberals).

Yay for ecoterrorists holding an entire country hostage!

 

[Lentern]

Yay for ecoterrorists holding an entire country hostage!

As an ecoterrrorist at large I'd like to dissociate myself from the comments of David Barnes generally.

 

[Chemical Ali]

What the hell IS the working class in 2011?

Apprentices can get more than qualified nurses

Tradies can get more than qualified engineers

Yobs driving trucks around a hole in the ground can get more than doctors


Even if it was only subsidizing "useless" Arts degrees, at least the increased level of reading and contemplation among the masses might bring some more culture into this crass shithole at the arse end of the world and we wouldn't be such an international laughing stock.

 

[Lentern]

What the hell IS the working class in 2011?

Apprentices can get more than qualified nurses

Tradies can get more than qualified engineers

Yobs driving trucks around a hole in the ground can get more than doctors


Even if it was only subsidizing "useless" Arts degrees, at least the increased level of reading and contemplation among the masses might bring some more culture into this crass shithole at the arse end of the world and we wouldn't be such an international laughing stock.

I'd call the good men and women I work with who have gotten up at 4am every weekday for the past five years to lug boxes around, working class. After five years of ringing in each day to put themselves down as available for a shift they are all still casual and despite their impeccable records will some weeks fail to get a single shift longer than four hours. Unlike jobs in retail and reception that I've also held, they don't stand around for any of their shifts, it's a constant rotation interrupted occasionally for a sip of water or a toilet break, although the site manager knows and makes it known that he knows if more than one of those is taken in a shift. Many of them attend ESL classess in the afternoons/nights on top of their work commitments and a quarter of them ride pushbikes home after the shift. It might not be the streets of 1921 St Petersberg but they oughtn't be footing the bill for yuppies-to-be.

 

[Rothbard]

the working classes are the idiots that don't go to uni

~self defining~

 

[Chemical Ali]

If they're working 4 hour shifts, how much tax could they possibly be paying? Not a great deal. If some cashed up bogan can't afford a chevy badge for his new VXXX commodore I won't be crying. It might make driving on the M7 slightly less painful.

By the way those ESL classes are most likely free, due to who? The evil socialist left, of course.

If it was left to you capitalist scum they probably wouldn't even get casual rates or have any ESL classes to go to.

 

[cosmo kramer]

I think degrees should be subsidised or even free, but only for either individuals who show higher than average intellectual ability and are unable to afford it otherwise, or for engineering and math students who show adequate ability in these subjects. So-so students doing a Bachelors or whatever should receive no financial assistance from the government whatsoever. Standards of course should be high, courses should be rigorous and the academy of Cultural Marxists should be purged. Rigorous, high criterion validity specialised psychometric examination tests for specific professions should also be employed to provide accredation to people who score high enough as an alternative to going to university. I see no reason why primary school and kindergarten teachers need a fucking degree. It is very simple to construct an employment performance exam that can be sat in about two and a half hours that can be more predictive of job performance in a particular (or any) profession than a college degree. This will be well suited to disciplined autodidacts or individuals who did shorter, less prestiguous courses for their professional specialisation than college students but nonetheless are smart or knowledgable enough to do as well as them, or better, in their related profession.

There should also be more shorter courses available without any superfluous bullshit to provide people as quickly as possible with the skills needed to perform adequately in a profession.

 

[Lentern]

If they're working 4 hour shifts, how much tax could they possibly be paying? Not a great deal. If some cashed up bogan can't afford a chevy badge for his new VXXX commodore I won't be crying. It might make driving on the M7 slightly less painful.

By the way those ESL classes are most likely free, due to who? The evil socialist left, of course.

If it was left to you capitalist scum they probably wouldn't even get casual rates or have any ESL classes to go to.

I said some weeks, the point being that they need to budget for the fact that some weeks there will only be twenty hours of work. On average they probably get about thirty two. As for the charge of being capitalist scum, just wow. You want to throw more cash around at the future engineers, barristers and accountants at the expense of storemen and forklift operators, what could possibly be more elitist?

If some cashed up bogan can't afford a chevy badge for his new VXXX commodore I won't be crying.

Is it any wonder the Western Suburbs hold the progressive left in contempt? Is it any wonder, with that mentality, why the party with the most socialistic values, with the strongest multicultural platform can't crack it in an area which has rock bottom socio-economic status and the highest range of ethnicities anywhere in the world sans Israel? I worked with 2010 Greens campaign in Blaxland and my god our head was exploding every time Lee Rhiannon or John Kaye opened their mouths. If we actually got five minutes to explain the policy platform we seducing voters at a spectacular rate but most of them, because of bullshit like you just said, were convinced we were just a bunch of condescending snobs in the David Marr mould.