Liberal or Labor? (1 Viewer)

[SylviaB]

Yeah who needs states, let the free market run countries, that way everyone* will be better off.
* rich people

The poor would be better off in a free market society.

"rich people" as in the super rich, would be worse off.

 

[-Lemon-]

The poor would be better off in a free market society.

"rich people" as in the super rich, would be worse off.

Yeah, good point, the Free Market is working out great for the homeless in Somalia

 

[jennyfromdabloc]

Yeah, good point, the Free Market is working out great for the homeless in Somalia

Yes, it is.

Numerous studies have shown that living standards have significantly increased in Somalia since the collapse of the government.

Somalia After State Collapse: Chaos or Improvement?: Publications: The Independent Institute

Stateless in Somalia, and Loving It - Yumi Kim - Mises Daily

 

[SylviaB]

Yeah, good point, the Free Market is working out great for the homeless in Somalia

-Somalia has always been shit.

-For several decades preceding their statelessness, they had a huge, horrible socialist government that made things even worse.

- When this state collapsed, things were their regular shitness once again. Obviously those who came to rely upon the state were worse off in the immediate aftermath (which is why I advocate the dismantlement, not the rapid destruction, of the state), but things are becoming better than when they had the state. For people in rural areas who didn't rely on the state for anything, life without the state is much better.

TL;DR: you're a fucking moron who doesn't know anything about Somalia

 

[-Lemon-]

Yes, it is.

Numerous studies have shown that living standards have significantly increased in Somalia since the collapse of the government.

Somalia After State Collapse: Chaos or Improvement?: Publications: The Independent Institute

Stateless in Somalia, and Loving It - Yumi Kim - Mises Daily

Haha......u call these things 'studies'?
Both are written by crackpots trying to push their far right agenda, the GMU guys paper is rubbish as well if you actually take the time to read it.

Free market fundamentalism is a bunk qausi-religion, the fact that their is a business cycle completely explodes it.

 

[Calculon]

Yeah who needs states, let the free market run countries, that way everyone* will be better off.




* rich people

Everyone will be rich people.

 

[murphyad]

Yes, it is.

Uhh noooo.

The following is taken from 'Governance without Government in Somalia Spoilers, State Building, and the Politics of Coping' by K. Menkhaus, an article appearing in 'International Security' in 2007 which does without the pathetic bias of sites such as Mises.org.

State building—whether organic or inorganic—is constrained by the economic base of the country. Somalia’s economy remains one of the poorest in the world. Its productivity is based mainly on pastoral nomadism and, in some regions, agriculture; both sectors are chiefly subsistence-oriented and profoundly impoverished. Somalia’s human development indicators are among the lowest as well. The country is heavily and increasingly dependent on remittances, which total between $500 million to $1 billion annually. Remittances have been the key to impressive growth in money transfer and telecommuni- cation companies, commercial imports of consumer goods, the transportation sector, real estate investment and housing construction, and a range of service industries. Nearly all of this economic growth and entrepreneurism occurs in the largest cities, worsening the urban-rural wealth gap in the country. The prolonged absence of a central government has meant that the private sector (and in some services, the nonprivate sector) is generally the only provider of what services are available in areas such as health care and education. The private sector has stepped into many of the functions normally associated with the state, operating seaports, airports, and local electric and piped water grids. Sectors where businesses either see no profit or are discouraged by problems of collective goods (e.g., road maintenance and public sanitation)—are immediately visible “market failures” that only a revived state authority can address. This “privatization of everything” in Somalia has also created a largely unregulated economy in which criminal economic activity (e.g., smuggling and drug production) flourishes.

 

[Calculon]

Haha......u call these things 'studies'?
Both are written by crackpots trying to push their far right agenda, the GMU guys paper is rubbish as well if you actually take the time to read it.

Free market fundamentalism is a bunk qausi-religion, the fact that their is a business cycle completely explodes it.

C'mon sweetheart, you can do better than that. Each 'dip' in the business cycle can largely be attributed to one or more government fuckups over the preceding decade.

 

[SylviaB]

Free market fundamentalism is a bunk qausi-religion, the fact that their is a business cycle completely explodes it.

business cycles are caused by the state

seriously America is unbeliveably regulated i.e. market is not remotely free

and yet the business cycle wreaks havoc

so..how exactly do states prevent business cycles like you are suggesting?

 

[-Lemon-]

C'mon sweetheart, you can do better than that. Each 'dip' in the business cycle can largely be attributed to one or more government fuckups over the preceding decade.

The business cycle has been around for centuries you prole, have a read. The central bank is a relatively recent invention, so there goes your theory.

(And yes the 'government' did 'fuck up' a decade ago, but only because they decreased the amount of financial regulation)

 

[SylviaB]

The business cycle has been around for centuries you prole, have a read. The central bank is a relatively recent invention, so there goes your theory.

lol...and yet it is only after creation of the federal reserve we have the greatest financial collapse i.e. the great depression

 

[-Lemon-]

lol...and yet it is only after creation of the federal reserve we have the greatest financial collapse i.e. the great depression

Lol, they did cause the 'depression' or contraction part (but not the crash). But ironically it was because they held the philosophy that markets where 'best left to themselves', they didn't bail out banks and they didn't slash interest rates, and they didn't have deposit insurance, this is what cause the depression.

 

[jennyfromdabloc]

Uhh noooo.

The following is taken from 'Governance without Government in Somalia Spoilers, State Building, and the Politics of Coping' by K. Menkhaus, an article appearing in 'International Security' in 2007 which does without the pathetic bias of sites such as Mises.org.

Yes and remittances have increased because there is less fear that the money will be confiscated by a corrupt government.

 

[murphyad]

Yes and remittances have increased because there is less fear that the money will be confiscated by a corrupt government.

[Citation needed]

Plus everyone knows an economy that relies on huge sums of remittances to stay standing is a healthy and successful one, amirite?

 

[SylviaB]

[Citation needed]

Plus everyone knows an economy that relies on huge sums of remittances to stay standing is a healthy and successful one, amirite?

when you're a developing nation...and you had a huge statist government that ruined your economy....

 

[murphyad]

when you're a developing nation...and you had a huge statist government that ruined your economy....

The ONLY reason Somalia was saved from complete and utter fuckery was because it just so happened that one-seventh of the entire population decided to piss off to safer havens and then, due to the clan-like nature of Somali society, were willing to send huge sums of money back to their homeland. I'm pretty sure the success of free market theory isn't supposed to dependent upon what is essentially a system of private subsidisation.

 

[SylviaB]

sorry, explain to me the part where it is reasonable to expect the free market to fix things where there a huge socialist government has recently collapsed.

What happened in somalia is like this: They built a ship with a central beam that supports the ship. This beam makes the boat heavy and awful. (i.e. huge government)

Someone says "oh look we can make ships without a central beam and use side ribbings instead. this will make the ship lighter and faster and much better" (i.e. no government)

naturally, if you hear this and abruptly rip out your ship's central beam, you can't expect your ship to work.

 

[murphyad]

sorry, explain to me the part where it is reasonable to expect the free market to fix things where there a huge socialist government has recently collapsed.

Uh

The original assertion of jennyfromdabloc was that the free market HAD fixed things.

But the only reason a free market system was able to be established at all was because of remittances.

So therefore any improvements aren't really dependent on the free market system so much as they are dependent on private donations from overseas that are essentially a unique manifestation of Somali social structure and cultural context (Civil War -> Disapora).

What happened in Somalia can be illustrated using this vulgar and oversimplified analogy: the economy is like a well of water. The water level in this well remained very low. But after the government collapsed, the water level started to slowly rise.

Some people said, 'oh, the well must possess some innate characteristics that enable it to create water by itself'

But the truth was, at night, people had been coming to the well with buckets from a faraway lake and filling it up themselves.

 

[SylviaB]

Uh

The original assertion of jennyfromdabloc was that the free market HAD fixed things.

Nope, he claimed things were better than with a state.

But the only reason a free market system was able to be established at all was because of remittances.

Which is bloody well fair enough given that:
-Somalia's socialist government completely ruined their currency with mass inflation
-Abolished property rights (or at least, ignored them whenever it suited them) making wealth creation/productivity extremely difficult

So therefore any improvements aren't really dependent on the free market system so much as they are dependent on private donations from overseas that are essentially a unique manifestation of Somali social structure and cultural context (Civil War -> Disapora).

But the truth was, at night, people had been coming to the well with buckets from a faraway lake and filling it up themselves.

Which is necessary when you're starting from shit all and the state has poisoned the little water that was in the well in the first place.

 

[jennyfromdabloc]

[Citation needed]

Plus everyone knows an economy that relies on huge sums of remittances to stay standing is a healthy and successful one, amirite?

Somalia has been a shithole for the last century, largely due to the interference of colonial, you guess it, GOVERNMENTS.

The question is not whether Somalia is a nice place to live, its whether it has got better since the collapse of government.

It's difficult to say either way, because of the different regional factions, warlords and governments that do exist. Quality of life has probably improved in some areas of the country, while regressing in others.