Publican or Patron. Who's responsible? (1 Viewer)

[tonyharrison]

Drinkers shout down court ruling - ABC News (Australian Broadcasting Corporation)


If there is an accident due to alcohol, do you think the individual should be responsible or should the publican have a duty of care for anyone who steps on the premises?

 

[Bigboyjames lol]

Im responsible for myself, period.

 

[murphyad]

Depends on the level of intoxication. The reduced cognitive capacity of a drunk individual necessitates a duty of care that rests with the publican, regardless of where final responsibility lies.

 

[tonyharrison]

So if a publican thinks the guy is too drunk to drive, he should stop him by all means possible from driving?

 

[David Spade]

patron

patron went to the pub with the intention/ or not of getting smashed, they know their cognitive capacity will be reduced and should plan for that beforehand, such as handing in their keys and shit

 

[tonyharrison]

Well it won't be a problem for you SPade as all your pubs close before 12 XD

 

[murphyad]

So if a publican thinks the guy is too drunk to drive, he should stop him by all means possible from driving?

Possibly. Though as the judges said yesterday (or whenever), it can be difficult to determine. I guess we should apply 'reasonable standards'. The patron in question had had about 8 beers and his BAC was like 0.25 - commonsense suggests 8 beers is a bit too much to drive home.

patron

patron went to the pub with the intention/ or not of getting smashed, they know their cognitive capacity will be reduced and should plan for that beforehand, such as handing in their keys and shit

I dunno if you've ever been drunk before, but it gets pretty hard to make rational decisions after enough alcohol. You can't just 'plan for it' beforehand.

Besides, this guy did hand in his keys like a responsible patron would, then asked for them back later when smashed - "yeah, I'm fine to drive". 700m from home - dead.

 

[David Spade]

dude see my sig
im drunk right now

i have never once when i have been drunk not known what i am doing
sure dumb stuff seems like a better idea
but i still know im doing it

if i was going to drive to the pub and get drunk, shouldnt it be my responsibility to ensure i dont do anything dumb when i leave, like drive my car?

 

[murphyad]

dude see my sig
im drunk right now

lawl

i have never once when i have been drunk not known what i am doing
sure dumb stuff seems like a better idea
but i still know im doing it

More or less the entire problem. Stuff so dumb that it can lead to one's death can sometimes become perfectly reasonable when drunk.

if i was going to drive to the pub and get drunk, shouldnt it be my responsibility to ensure i dont do anything dumb when i leave, like drive my car?

It is partially your responsibility. However, when I remember back to the endless hours of shit we learned about in school about how alcohol can fuck with a person's reasoning, I just consider it too morally callous for the publican to be exempt from any responsibility. Imagine: "Oh, that guy has had so much to drink that he could very well kill himself if I let him drive home despite the fact that he asked me to stop him earlier when he was not drunk, but who cares? It's not my responsibility....he's a grown adult (even if he is drunk) so I'm just going to use that absolutism to justify my inaction that could possibly contribute to his death" *whistles a tune*

 

[David Spade]

yeah but in that case he has asked the publican to stop him

putting the responsibility back onto him

 

[murphyad]

yeah but in that case he has asked the publican to stop him

putting the responsibility back onto him

Yeah initially, when he was thinking straight.

However, the fact that he rescinded on his original decision later demonstrates that his decision-making facilities were impaired. Thus as far as I'm concerned the publican is partially responsible for a) letting the man walk out with a BAC of 0.25 and b) complying with the drunk man's wishes, which were clearly contradictory to his earlier, more reasonable decisions.

 

[Sprangler]

What was the pub owner going to do anyway? Get some bouncers to force the guy to hand over his keys?

edit: oh
http://www.abc.net.au/news/stories/2009/11/10/2738384.htm?site=local

Earlier in the evening he had given his keys to the publican to stop himself from riding home drunk.

 

[David Spade]

i just said that

once he asks the publican to make sure he doesnt drive, then the responsibility is put onto the publican.

 

[murphyad]

GFD

The dude had voluntarily handed his keys in earlier. He then asked for them back when drunk, a request that the publican complied with, after which he killed himself while driving home.

 

[murphyad]

i just said that

once he asks the publican to make sure he doesnt drive, then the responsibility is put onto the publican.

Ah k sorry.

It seems we are in agreement on this point then.

 

[David Spade]

i didnt actually read the article

 

[Rafy]

What was the pub owner going to do anyway? Get some bouncers to force the guy to hand over his keys?

Indeed. Then the publican is violating the person's property rights.

 

[Sprangler]

Indeed. Then the publican is violating the person's property rights.

In the OP article it didn't say anything about the keys, but it turns out the guy handed the keys over beforehand. In that case, it's common sense that the publican shouldn't have handed over the keys. Not sure on the legal issues there though.

 

[Rafy]

C.A.L. No 14 Pty Ltd v Motor Accidents Insurance Board; C.A.L. No 14 Pty Ltd v Scott [2009] HCA 47

 

[tonyharrison]

Indeed. Then the publican is violating the person's property rights.

It's a lose-lose situation