Where do you stand? (3 Viewers)

[ay0_x]

Re: BOS political compass scatterplot

Dear me, I don't see how you will survive law.

 

[Silver Persian]

Re: BOS political compass scatterplot

In the 70s homosexuality was once listed as a mental disorder.

Well, this is in some ways my point. To classify someone as mentally ill implies some kind of normative standard of rationality or normalcy. If libertarians believe that people should have the freedom to live their lives as they see fit, and reject tje ability of the state or medical professionals to impose such definitions of normalcy, on what basis could we identify anybody as being mentally ill?

This perspective is what I'm trying to get at: The Myth of Mental Illness - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Silver Persian]

Re: BOS political compass scatterplot

Iron is half way between libertarianism and authoritarianism. How strange.

 

[Nebuchanezzar]

Re: BOS political compass scatterplot

-10,-10

freedome in a fair world!

 

[Lentern]

Re: BOS political compass scatterplot

So you don't know what you really want, but some bureaucrat in Canberra does?

People don't know what they want but the cream of society will know what will benefit them.

But every person is an individual. What is good for you may be terrible for someone else. You've nitpicked at my posts, all the while ignoring the main point.

Different people like different things. Why do some like chocolate while others prefer vanilla? Why do some people enjoy extreme sports, while others prefer to curl up in bed with a good book? Who knows. The point is we are all different. These different preferences apply to health care just like anything else. As I said:

"To get better health you have to sacrifice things like time, money and short term pleasure.

How much of these things should you trade off for how much health?"

This will vary depending on the individual. No amount of study and education can make us an expert in determining other people's true preferences.

The only way what you said could possibly make any sense is not only if we assume that the regulators are 'clever and benevolent' (which is hugely unrealistic for a start) but that they have the time and resources to analyze the needs of each individual.

This is a bizarre, impossible fantasy that has no grounding in reality and is totally irrelevant to discussions about what the government should actually be doing.

Considering you have trouble realizing what I mean even after I've said it I'm not sure issuing predictions an exercise of your soundest judgement? At any rate you've said all this before. You clearly have some delusion about the brilliance of the individual to rise to the occasion when we let them even though time and time again they have made mindless, stupid choices which they are fully aware will induce bad consequences. What will happen in your anarchist brutopia is that life expectancy will fall, progress will hit a brick wall, morale will plummet and thugs will inherit the earth. And then when all this happens you will insist that although its worse its better because at least they got to choose it.

 

[Lentern]

Re: BOS political compass scatterplot

Dear me, I don't see how you will survive law.

Ooh, personal. Here I was not two hours ago thinking that you were one of the good anarchists, different but reasonable, intelligent and thoughtful. Oh well I'll get over it.

 

[jennyfromdabloc]

Re: BOS political compass scatterplot

I don't deny that individuals make decisions they may later regret. But you have failed to demonstrate how regulators would do a BETTER job of making decisions for people.

As I said they can tell us how to be healthier, I'm all for people being better educated about these things. But how do they determine how much X to trade for how much Y and then impose this on individuals who all have different preferences?

 

[ay0_x]

Re: BOS political compass scatterplot

Ooh, personal. Here I was not two hours ago thinking that you were one of the good anarchists, different but reasonable, intelligent and thoughtful. Oh well I'll get over it.

It wasn't meant to be personal, more out of concern, my friend.

The whole "someone knows better than me" depreciative attitude will not stand you in good stead, especially in an industry as brutal as law. Will you be saying "okay, sorry, the plaintiff's lawyer has more experience + knowledge than me. My client and I forfeit this case"?

Your utter respect for authority amazes me, your ability to think of certain people as the "cream" of society and disregard everyone else's intelligence bewilders me. Only the Individual knows what's best for them. Whether they want to strive for it or not that is their prerogative. Whilst being controlled might be your cup of tea, nnot everyone will agree. In anarchist society, you could live the way you want by forming a relationship with someone "Smarter" and more "Capable" than you and living under their control. Nobody would intervene. But in your authoritarian world, I could not be free. I would not be happy.

My utopia seems more accepting of you than yours is of me.

Am I making sense?

 

[Lentern]

Re: BOS political compass scatterplot

I don't deny that individuals make mistakes. But you have failed to demonstrate how regulators would do a BETTER job of making decisions for people.

As I said they can tell us how to be healthier, I'm all for people being better educated about these things. But how do they determine how much X to trade for how much Y and then impose this on individuals who all have different preferences?

The whole crux of my argument has been that there are people that know better than you or I. You then ask me what formula should be used to achieve the highest degree of happiness in a socialist state? I think you see where I'm getting at. I could make one up now but I trust Barry Jones could make up a better one.

 

[jennyfromdabloc]

Re: BOS political compass scatterplot

Lentern, I'm more than happy for you to live out your authoritarian dream. Sign over power of attourney to someone and have them punish you if eat unhealthy foods.

That's the thing about libertarians. We're happy to let you live the way you want, even if we find it silly. Why can you afford us the same liberty?

 

[jennyfromdabloc]

Re: BOS political compass scatterplot

The whole crux of my argument has been that there are people that know better than you or I. You then ask me what formula should be used to achieve the highest degree of happiness in a socialist state? I think you see where I'm getting at. I could make one up now but I trust Barry Jones could make up a better one.

Yes I know what your assertion is, I was rather hoping you might back it up with some explaination about how they might go about deriving such a wonderful formula, rather than just repeating your self.

You also admitted earlier that you don't believe regulators actually act benevolently. Has your stance on this changed?

 

[Lentern]

Re: BOS political compass scatterplot

It wasn't meant to be personal, more out of concern, my friend.

The whole "someone knows better than me" depreciative attitude will not stand you in good stead, especially in an industry as brutal as law. Will you be saying "okay, sorry, the plaintiff's lawyer has more experience + knowledge than me. My client and I forfeit this case"?

Your utter respect for authority amazes me, your ability to think of certain people as the "cream" of society and disregard everyone else's intelligence bewilders me. Only the Individual knows what's best for them. Whether they want to strive for it or not that is their prerogative. Whilst being controlled might be your cup of tea, nnot everyone will agree. In anarchist society, you could live the way you want by forming a relationship with someone "Smarter" and more "Capable" than you and living under their control. Nobody would intervene. But in your authoritarian world, I could not be free. I would not be happy.

My utopia seems more accepting of you than yours is of me.

Am I making sense?

Knowing ones limitations is not a bad thing, better to refer a client to a lawyer capable of winning than to lead a client into almost certain defeat.

What you don't appreciate when you say i simply disregard everyone else's intelligence is that I'm also a great believer in democracy. Yes I would like to see people invest more in great academics and scientists at the summit of society but voluntarily to be held to account at regular elections. However I do completely reject that the individual knows best, they do not the individual is stupid, very very stupid.

And this stupidity of the individual is exactly the pitfall of your anarchist utopia, what happens to the dumb people and the introverted people? Some benevolent and brilliant individuals might take them under their wing but in the competition that all this freedom would create they probably wouldn't have time.

 

[loquasagacious]

Re: BOS political compass scatterplot

Ooh, personal. Here I was not two hours ago thinking that you were one of the good anarchists, different but reasonable, intelligent and thoughtful. Oh well I'll get over it.

Ayo was trying to assist you because she clearly knows better than you do how you would fare as a lawyer.

Also I must say that I did get a genuine laugh out of the idea that you honestly believe that there should be a ruling elite to guide the masses. Seriously. Divine right of Kings. Look it up.

 

[loquasagacious]

Re: BOS political compass scatterplot

Knowing ones limitations is not a bad thing, better to refer a client to a lawyer capable of winning than to lead a client into almost certain defeat.

What you don't appreciate when you say i simply disregard everyone else's intelligence is that I'm also a great believer in democracy. Yes I would like to see people invest more in great academics and scientists at the summit of society but voluntarily to be held to account at regular elections. However I do completely reject that the individual knows best, they do not the individual is stupid, very very stupid.

And this stupidity of the individual is exactly the pitfall of your anarchist utopia, what happens to the dumb people and the introverted people? Some benevolent and brilliant individuals might take them under their wing but in the competition that all this freedom would create they probably wouldn't have time.

If people can't be trusted to make decisions how can you support democracy???

 

[ay0_x]

Re: BOS political compass scatterplot

I would like to think that survival instincts would kick in in my anarchist utopia...

I do think the downfall of government is that it cripples people's want to achieve.

Welfare... crippling.

Minimum wage... crippling.

Free health care... crippling.

"Protection"... crippling.

All of these things provide a safety net . A safety net that has trapped many people and has lead them to live mediocre lives.

If there was no welfare and the world was dog-eat-dog, do you really think the 20 dumb kids in my grade would have dropped out to smoke pot? No. Eventually, survival instincts will kick in.

The only reason the individual is stupid is because from cradle to grave we are told what to think, how to think, when to think it, and what to do with our thoughts.

 

[ay0_x]

Re: BOS political compass scatterplot

Ayo was trying to assist you because she clearly knows better than you do how you would fare as a lawyer.

I work in a law firm. Of course.

 

[Lentern]

Re: BOS political compass scatterplot

Yes I know what your assertion is, I was rather hoping you might back it up with some explaination about how they might go about deriving such a wonderful formula, rather than just repeating your self.

You also admitted earlier that you don't believe regulators actually act benevolently. Has your stance on this changed?

I said there would be all sorts of risks regarding corruption; that does not mean it is impossible for a powerful man to be benevolent.

If you want an example of what this formula would involve probably the criminalization of cigarettes. What do people get out of it? It cripples there health and provides virtually no return and yet thousands of people in Sydney alone do it regularly fully aware of what it will do to them.

And I'd repeat myself less if you didn't repeat the questions so much.

 

[ay0_x]

Re: BOS political compass scatterplot

I said there would be all sorts of risks regarding corruption; that does not mean it is impossible for a powerful man to be benevolent.

If you want an example of what this formula would involve probably the criminalization of cigarettes. What do people get out of it? It cripples there health and provides virtually no return and yet thousands of people in Sydney alone do it regularly fully aware of what it will do to them.

And I'd repeat myself less if you didn't repeat the questions so much.

Sorry but how do all these issues personally affect YOU?

Why do you have to concern yourself with all the silly things people do that aren't good for them [but obviously do provide some sense of satisfaction]?

 

[jennyfromdabloc]

Re: BOS political compass scatterplot

Lentern: If most people are stupid, and demcracy is good, won't most people just vote for stupid things.

Why would we think that wise, benevolent intellectuals will rise to the top of the polticial system?

 

[Lentern]

Re: BOS political compass scatterplot

If people can't be trusted to make decisions how can you support democracy???

I see it as a kind of safeguard. Whilst they get a lot wrong they tend to have fairly alright fundamental views that I have faith in. The other thing is that I can envision people in the objective light of a poll both thinking about the longterm because they probably wont get short term pleasure from voting in a particular way. It is the temptation of this short term pleasure I think that prompts most of these stupid stupid "deal with the consequences later" attitude.