Commerce/economics... and a language..? (2 Viewers)

[countnigel]

Hey guys

I am currently in yr 11 and looking at doing a combined commerce/eco degree. After going to both the ANU and UNSW open days I fell in love with ANU and thus want to do my degrees there. The only problem with doing the degree @ ANU is that unlike UNSW it appears I can't do a language (french) as a second major... I was reconsidering doing commerce/arts so as to accommodate french however: firstly; from what I have heard commerce/eco has better employment chances - as an economics degree would be considered by employers to be better than an arts degree in the field and secondly I'm not too sure what I want to do after uni whether it be working as an IB, broker etc or working in the public service - DFAT etc where a second language could be a great help.

Your thoughts??

 

[Studentleader]

Hey guys

I am currently in yr 11 and looking at doing a combined commerce/eco degree. After going to both the ANU and UNSW open days I fell in love with ANU and thus want to do my degrees there. The only problem with doing the degree @ ANU is that unlike UNSW it appears I can't do a language (french) as a second major... I was reconsidering doing commerce/arts so as to accommodate french however: firstly; from what I have heard commerce/eco has better employment chances - as an economics degree would be considered by employers to be better than an arts degree in the field and secondly I'm not too sure what I want to do after uni whether it be working as an IB, broker etc or working in the public service - DFAT etc where a second language could be a great help.

Your thoughts??

Unwritten rules of Commerce/Business Forum / University in General:

1) You must go to UNSW or you will be exiled by your asian parents
2) You will not do an arts degree - they teach that stuff in TAFE
3) Economics is useless as an undergraduate - Keynesian Economics fails
4) IB was soooo 2007 - You will now do Acturial Sciences
5) Actuarial Sciences > Finance
6) Mathematics > Actuarial Sciences

(This is now the topic of this thread.)

On a more serious though equally cynical note:

1) Keynesian economics is taught as an undergraduate and it fails - University economics is extremely theoretical not applicable in everyday life
2) REAL Economics is extremely mathematics intensive - if you want to do post graduate work you should definately minor in mathematics
3) B.Comm(Economics) or whatever makes you a pretty shit economist
4) A second language means shit all unless you are going to use it
5) You can learn a language on your own or through TAFE which is a fuckload cheaper and quicker
6) Double degrees are silly - do honours/masters

Atleast you don't want to do management/marketing

 

[lambchop]

do not underestimate the job prospects that languages offer. I would do Comm or Eco depending on which you prefer, and then Arts or International Relations and do your language major. You will then have a business background and a language. With companies having ties worldwide, they are always looking for people who can do their work in many countries.

 

[wrong_turn]

studentleader you forgot one more rule. "don't trust everything studentleader tells you"

-commerce/economics: look at doing 2 majors in business, and 1 language if that is what you want to do. it is shorter than doing commerce/arts which is 5 years, as opposed to this 4 year degree.
- economics is not all about economic theory. you may want to do econometrics or financial econometrics. however, if you do choose economics as a major, you are forced to do some econometrics anyway, and the math required that studentleader suggested.
-do a double degree if you want. not everyone wants to do honours or masters. make your own decision. double degrees are not silly (you can determine this for yourself).
- economics is a lot about welfare and equality blah blah blah. it is not purely theoretical. from what i remember, studentleader is class of 08 and has thus just entered into uni with a first year background. higher level economics requires one to apply theory into practice and forces you to study actual companies. e.g. analysing a company based on economic theory (and thus working out what theory will work and what doesn't)
- study management or marketing if you want. however, i would strongly recommend that you join them with a stronger major as they might be deemed in a large sense, complementary. e.g. doing international business with management is deadly...

Good luck!

 

[Cookie182]

Unwritten rules of Commerce/Business Forum / University in General:

1) You must go to UNSW or you will be exiled by your asian parents
2) You will not do an arts degree - they teach that stuff in TAFE
3) Economics is useless as an undergraduate - Keynesian Economics fails
4) IB was soooo 2007 - You will now do Acturial Sciences
5) Actuarial Sciences > Finance
6) Mathematics > Actuarial Sciences

(This is now the topic of this thread.)

On a more serious though equally cynical note:

1) Keynesian economics is taught as an undergraduate and it fails - University economics is extremely theoretical not applicable in everyday life
2) REAL Economics is extremely mathematics intensive - if you want to do post graduate work you should definately minor in mathematics
3) B.Comm(Economics) or whatever makes you a pretty shit economist
4) A second language means shit all unless you are going to use it
5) You can learn a language on your own or through TAFE which is a fuckload cheaper and quicker
6) Double degrees are silly - do honours/masters

Atleast you don't want to do management/marketing

So cynical...

I generally like you as a member but you spout some career shattering info without much evidence...

In sum, you arrogantly assume the only thing worth doing at uni is maths- also remember this, most people (whether good at it or not) find it shit boring and couldn't think of anything worse to study for 5 yrs. We don't all want quantitative jobs...

Sure, to do a PhD or even say MEco at ANU/USYD/UMELB...u need strong math skills, you can do a few math subjects through out your eco degree while mixing it with more interesting stuff...your same logic also applies to maths as it does to language (and any field), most things you can learn yourself at home...I recently taught myself matrix algebra and PDE's to a decent level, wasn't realli that hard.

Maths doesn't teach any people/communication skills which are required for the type of career the OP might want- eco engages you with real world problems, politics, history...

LOL that you can do arts at TAFE...tell that to Kfunk with his philosophy degree...

Arts is fantastic for a well-rounded liberal education to supplement other careers; if your interested, knowledge of philosophy, sociology, psychology, politics, languages, history, english and linguistics is most certainly NOT useless...

English majors trade on wall street

 

[Cookie182]

Ask yourself too- how many "Economists" or grads actually go into academia?

Very, very few get PhD's...I know many grads with fantastic jobs who did very little and in some cases no maths (bar the university minimum). To work at the RBA you only need an honours degree- most friends who are there simply did two semesters of econometrics in their commerce degree, found honours ok and now have excellent jobs...others have done the masters of econ at USYD/UNSW, found it hard but certainly bearable...they had basic elementary calculus skills (nothing realli beyond say 3U maths), basic stat skills...

Also, I asked a few eco lecturers who have PhD's in economics...its a huge field. While most have mathematical proficency, the major skill is simply knowing your way around research (common to all fields), how to interpret stats etc...unless your area is specific applied mathematical micro/macro modelling, it ain't that heavy. Many research income inequality, law and economics, behavioural finance, economic history...

 

[Cookie182]

Finally,

why wouldn't you study management and marketing if that was your interest area?

Sure combine them with something else, but marketing is an extremely interesting field and if your legitimately interested in anything from advertising to organisational behaviour and change management, even logistics (management) then degrees here are very helpful!

 

[wrong_turn]

cookie182, its too bad that i cannot rep you more than once... you deserved the second one and maybe the 3rd one, maybe the 3rd...because i brought up half of it =P

 

[Cookie182]

cookie182, its too bad that i cannot rep you more than once... you deserved the second one and maybe the 3rd one, maybe the 3rd...because i brought up half of it =P

Cheers...yea the third point is yours.

I guess I just get sick of heaps of quantitative students (maths or engineering) who also do commerce and feel they are far superior to anyone who does "arts" or something written. Sure maths is undeniably an important skill, but strong numerative skills are only one of the MANY graduate qualities sought out by most employers...in 95% of grad roles, basic numerical proficency is acceptable. It is only for the select few (even in banking/finance) who want to work on deriving/applying new models or obviously in academic research that need strong advanced maths (ie understanding Financial Calculus etc).

Note to, within the big IB's, these roles are generally "back office"- sure math/engineering grads have just as much chance to join the finance/economics (hons.) or comm/law grads in the front office, but so do BA (hons) grads who have a HD average and a shit load of extra-curriculars (there is philosophy grads working in IB's). These roles which pay the biggest $$$ are centered around strong communication skills, quick and rational thinking (which anyone can have) and endurance IMO.

 

[Studentleader]

English majors trade on wall street

This is true (trying to get my brother into trading because an English degree won't get you much else.)

There is quite a strong bit of "HURR DO A REAL DEGREE" coming from me (too much captain capitalist) however I'm a strong believer of "if its not going to get you a job it's a hobby" and I PERSONALLY don't believe hobbies belong in university.

"I recentel found out I could achieve the level of knowledge of a Philosophy & Psychology student in a weekend at the local library - too bad this was after I completed my double degree." - Philosophy & Psychology Grad

I'm also a strong believer of 'experience > knowledge > degrees' - that any degree can get any job (there are quite a few books on this) with exception to some stupid examples (politics student wanting to be a petroleum engineer.)

The most important skills to most jobs are intanglible such as leadership, quick-rational thinking, the ability to work in a group etc. the thing about these skills is that they are more virtues than courses that should be taught at university. I think self-help books probably give a better effect than some courses (Psycho-Cybernetics is quite a nice book.)

At the end of the day if you really shoot for the stars you will get there - its nice to have a good degree/experience on the resume though so you can blwo the interviewer away.

EDIT: If there was a Bachelors degree in problem-solving I'd do this and major in maths - the reason I'm doing computer science aswell is that there is more group work and more applied problem solving.

EDIT2: As much as I'd like to say economics as finance is "demand up UE down inflation up" it is quite hard to get accepted into a PhD program without a strong interest in more mathematical topics. I recently read a story of a brilliant economics student who was turned down from a tier-one PhD program in economics because he wrote his interest was 'economic history'. Six months later he reapplied and said his interests were 'experimental economics and game theory' and he was accepted.

When I plan investments I use minimal quantitative methods - I use fundamentals. Its alot more common sense for me to say 'I should invest in pesticides because there is a bat flu in america that is killing all the bats that eat all the insects that eat all the crop' and even easier to say 'wow there was an earthquake lets invest in a window repair company!'

 

[John0]

You need to narrow down the potential career paths your interested in, you’ve described a wide range of potential careers. I’m not familiar with ANU course structure but it’s quite possible you could enrol in either comm/eco or comm/arts and transfer later on if you have a change of heart. Ie do the comm part of your degree in your first year, then make up you mind about doing eco or arts for the following years.

3) Economics is useless as an undergraduate - Keynesian Economics fails

1) Keynesian economics is taught as an undergraduate and it fails - University economics is extremely theoretical not applicable in everyday life

The OP is after advice on possible degree combinations, not your opinion on different schools of economic thought. The majority of your unwritten rules or ideas are simply unsubstantiated babble.

Its alot more common sense for me to say 'I should invest in pesticides because there is a bat flu in america that is killing all the bats that eat all the insects that eat all the crop' and even easier to say 'wow there was an earthquake lets invest in a window repair company!'

Spoken like a true speculator but hey someone’s got to fill up their ranks in the wake of recent events. Which is quite peculiar, I would expect someone with a mathematical background would be doing a more sophisticated analysis instead of riding hunches. Fundamental analysis still involves the use quantitative values…

 

[Cookie182]

This is true (trying to get my brother into trading because an English degree won't get you much else.)

There is quite a strong bit of "HURR DO A REAL DEGREE" coming from me (too much captain capitalist) however I'm a strong believer of "if its not going to get you a job it's a hobby" and I PERSONALLY don't believe hobbies belong in university.

"I recentel found out I could achieve the level of knowledge of a Philosophy & Psychology student in a weekend at the local library - too bad this was after I completed my double degree." - Philosophy & Psychology Grad

I'm also a strong believer of 'experience > knowledge > degrees' - that any degree can get any job (there are quite a few books on this) with exception to some stupid examples (politics student wanting to be a petroleum engineer.)

The most important skills to most jobs are intanglible such as leadership, quick-rational thinking, the ability to work in a group etc. the thing about these skills is that they are more virtues than courses that should be taught at university. I think self-help books probably give a better effect than some courses (Psycho-Cybernetics is quite a nice book.)

At the end of the day if you really shoot for the stars you will get there - its nice to have a good degree/experience on the resume though so you can blwo the interviewer away.

EDIT: If there was a Bachelors degree in problem-solving I'd do this and major in maths - the reason I'm doing computer science aswell is that there is more group work and more applied problem solving.

EDIT2: As much as I'd like to say economics as finance is "demand up UE down inflation up" it is quite hard to get accepted into a PhD program without a strong interest in more mathematical topics. I recently read a story of a brilliant economics student who was turned down from a tier-one PhD program in economics because he wrote his interest was 'economic history'. Six months later he reapplied and said his interests were 'experimental economics and game theory' and he was accepted.

When I plan investments I use minimal quantitative methods - I use fundamentals. Its alot more common sense for me to say 'I should invest in pesticides because there is a bat flu in america that is killing all the bats that eat all the insects that eat all the crop' and even easier to say 'wow there was an earthquake lets invest in a window repair company!'

I definitely see your point, in many ways we are on the same page, like me your probably well-rounded and looking to maximise your personal value in the least costly way possible>>>mathematics skills (and albeit computing ARE very valuable).

BUT, there is more humour in that quote then anything else. Obviously if your reading it yourself you are only doing so to gain knowledge. When you work in a firm as a philosophy grad for eg you are not there to spout a Kantian perspective on whether the company is making an ethical perspective, as you say anyone could research Kant in their own time. The unique skill of many arts majors is the 3 yrs of non-stop debating at uni, the pressure of having to continually write evidence backed essays, thinking rationally and so forth- things like philosophy (as a major) are considerably difficult to grasp- if your doing it "for leisure" you will mostly just put it down or give up if you dont get it. The process of HAVING to get it in order to graduation (the general idea of difficulty) forces good learning aspects on you- I dare say this for any degree maths, physics, law....

+ the idea of university goes beyond "learning the material"- its the skills interactions, learning to research and communicate that is transferable. In this sense, do an enjoyable yet "difficult" (in terms of time pressure/workload) degree IMO and work; if you can handle this, you will be attractive for top jobs in most general fields, irrespective of your actual field.

I fully agree that if you just do a BA in something relatively easy like gender studies, Australian/culture/communication studies or even a Bcom (management, IB, HR...or even accounting) and put in very minimal effort, cruise through get even a C to a D, you can't really expect much (and if you do fluke an excellent job) you will be very shit compared to someone who is use to putting in the hardyards, has a breadth of knwoledge, creativity and analytical skills and most importantly is use to TIME CONSTRAINTS.

My two cents...

Also, psycho-cybernetics

 

[Cookie182]

I feel like rambling, I have two more things to say...

On the usefulness of the humanities

When the vocational student (INSERT- Engineer, Accounting, Medice or Law) approaches the arts student and says "put down Marx's critque of Hegel, that's never going to get you a job in life!"

The art student simply has to reply, "is the purpose of life to work?" Or to put it even more elegantly, "what ought to be the perfect education and correspondingly social system? Why are you getting your degree? Why do you need to work?"

Without resorting to the humanities themselves, how will Barry the engineering student respond?

My point is, at a deeper level, humanities question everything and we need people who are constantly challenging the social structure in order to continue its evolution.

2) Studentleader, you seem well read, what would you say on the idea of becoming an enterprenuer like say David Deangelo (Eben Pagan)?

The guy made like 20 million a year, started his "double your dating" business by writing on the internet from his apartment. I'd really love to break into that market- ie be like a life coach, dating etc

He has like his seminars on real estate, marketing, business functions and of course relationships...

Looks like he began in sales/marketing and real estate and just branched out reading pyschology as he went..

 

[Studentleader]

2) Studentleader, you seem well read, what would you say on the idea of becoming an enterprenuer like say David Deangelo (Eben Pagan)?
I read the "Studentleader, you seem well read" as "Studentleader you seem like a retard" about 5 times untill I realised it wasn't that.

The guy made like 20 million a year, started his "double your dating" business by writing on the internet from his apartment. I'd really love to break into that market- ie be like a life coach, dating etc

He has like his seminars on real estate, marketing, business functions and of course relationships...

Looks like he began in sales/marketing and real estate and just branched out reading pyschology as he went..

I think any idiot can start their own business - I myself am the MD of a publishing company (that I don't want to talk about .)

I can't really comment on the whole self-help business and I personally wouldn't be able to deal with consulting men on how to get women. Dealbreakers.com had an article about some woman on wall street who gets the IBers girlfriends - charges $20k for a date set or something stupid. I think the research could be interesting (and lead to alot of broken hearts!) I think I will start mentoring though just because I really need one at this age so I might aswell give someone else the oppurtunity however I don't think I could be able to get people to pay me (not that I want to be payed) untill I do something really amazing.

If you can sort out your own life to some perfect state where you are actually able to write a book go for it however I doubt you'd get many people to buy it unless it is a "how to go from 4 fails to 4 HDs" book with personal stories - what I like about those kind of books is the personal stories which Psycho-Cybernetics have limited of.

I think a good idea would be writing a blog which shows like alternatives to technology addiction. For example rather than playing WoW/watching tv for 50 hrs a week each week do something different and show quantitative results. I'd be very interested in that - especially regarding speed learning (i.e. can you 'complete' a unit from start to finish in 50 hrs?)

 

[Sultun]

If your aspiring to become a 'life coach' or a 'self help book writer' 'entrepreneur' you first need to find a prison cell of some sort, secondly you need to find away to open it, then once your inside you need to lock the door, then once locked safely inside, you need to take hold of the key and then throw it outside the cell.

 

[moll.]

This is true (trying to get my brother into trading because an English degree won't get you much else.)

There is quite a strong bit of "HURR DO A REAL DEGREE" coming from me (too much captain capitalist) however I'm a strong believer of "if its not going to get you a job it's a hobby" and I PERSONALLY don't believe hobbies belong in university.

"I recentel found out I could achieve the level of knowledge of a Philosophy & Psychology student in a weekend at the local library - too bad this was after I completed my double degree." - Philosophy & Psychology Grad

I'm also a strong believer of 'experience > knowledge > degrees' - that any degree can get any job (there are quite a few books on this) with exception to some stupid examples (politics student wanting to be a petroleum engineer.)

The most important skills to most jobs are intanglible such as leadership, quick-rational thinking, the ability to work in a group etc. the thing about these skills is that they are more virtues than courses that should be taught at university. I think self-help books probably give a better effect than some courses (Psycho-Cybernetics is quite a nice book.)

At the end of the day if you really shoot for the stars you will get there - its nice to have a good degree/experience on the resume though so you can blwo the interviewer away.

EDIT: If there was a Bachelors degree in problem-solving I'd do this and major in maths - the reason I'm doing computer science aswell is that there is more group work and more applied problem solving.

EDIT2: As much as I'd like to say economics as finance is "demand up UE down inflation up" it is quite hard to get accepted into a PhD program without a strong interest in more mathematical topics. I recently read a story of a brilliant economics student who was turned down from a tier-one PhD program in economics because he wrote his interest was 'economic history'. Six months later he reapplied and said his interests were 'experimental economics and game theory' and he was accepted.

When I plan investments I use minimal quantitative methods - I use fundamentals. Its alot more common sense for me to say 'I should invest in pesticides because there is a bat flu in america that is killing all the bats that eat all the insects that eat all the crop' and even easier to say 'wow there was an earthquake lets invest in a window repair company!'

This is why I'm going to go for the ADF scholarship to become a General Service Officer.

 

[Studentleader]

This is why I'm going to go for the ADF scholarship to become a General Service Officer.

Really wish I did this - would have done so much better at university if I went to military school.

 

[moll.]

Really wish I did this - would have done so much better at university if I went to military school.

Nah, I'm pretty sure that on an ADF scholarship the military commitments (including basic training and all that jizz) don't happen til afterwards. You just get paid to study and smoke weed.
A course at ADFA is another matter entirely, as the military and civilian training are blended together.

 

[Studentleader]

Nah, I'm pretty sure that on an ADF scholarship the military commitments (including basic training and all that jizz) don't happen til afterwards. You just get paid to study and smoke weed.

Lucky i didn't do it then - last thing I need is weed

Would have been nice to have something to do while studying though.

 

[moll.]

Lucky i didn't do it then - last thing I need is weed

Would have been nice to have something to do while studying though.

A job?
A hobby?
A sport?
Incessant masturbation?