Does God exist? (16 Viewers)

[Graney]

Secular Evidence:

"In fact, we can almost reconstruct the gospel just from early non-Christian sources: Jesus was called the Christ (Josephus)

That source is generally accepted by biblical scholars to have been corrupted, and no part of it is reliable.

did “magic,” led Israel into new teachings, and was hanged on Passover for them (Babylonian Talmud)

Scholars who promote the conclusion that Jesus is a myth sometimes use this early rabbinic literature to show that the Jesus stories of the gospels derive from a Jewish teacher in the first or second century BC.

in Judea (Tacitus)

Tacitus makes remarks about early christians, and is considered by some scholars to be simply repeating what he heard from other christians in his time.

which his followers believed, worshipping Him as God (Pliny the Younger)."

Charles Guignebert, who does not doubt that Jesus of the Gospels lived in Gallilee in the first century, nevertheless dismisses this letter as acceptable historical evidence: "Only the most robust credulity could reckon this assertion as admissible evidence for the historicity of Jesus"

I just read the wiki article anyhow. Historicity of Jesus - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

None of those sources is beyond significant doubt.

 

[gibbo153]

people get too worked up on the 'simpsons' style hell with typical satan wearing a red cape, trident over shoulder, lots of fire, lots of cruel punishments etc etc.

hell as described in the bible is, fundamentally, the corollary of being removed from God's presence. (athiest flame opportunity along the lines of 'WELL I GUESS WE'RE IN HELL NOW AHAHAHHAHAHAHHAH' is totally available)

 

[Brontecat]

Yes, yet not the "common" belief that bad people burn for their sins into all eternity. I believe what the Bible says and it doesn't say that. "the fire (hell) shall not be quenched" may be interpreted as they will burn forever. Yet fire doesn't burn forever, it needs fuel, thus will stop when judgement is complete and there's nothing left to burn. The fire and brimstone punishment on soddom and gomora can be parraleled to those in the lake of fire and brimstone (hell).

was this inspired by revelations? cause thats pretty similar to my belief, however i do not understand that last sentence.

 

[Tumnus]

OH MY FUCKING GOD AHAHAHAHAHAHAHAH. You, sir, are truly a daft cunt. Please come back when you pass year nine science and have some concept of world history.

lol

They come from society, not the bible. To say otherwise would be to say that societies before the bible was written had no moral codes or values. Which would be almost as retarded as your knowledge of evolution.

quote]

If i am such a "daft cunt" could you deign yourself to enlighten me? i'm serious here. i'm willing to learn somethings new or gain someone elses perspective. People have different perspectives and knowledge - thus reach different conclusions. Also could it be that not everything taught in school is correct? Or do you fully trust Big Brother?

 

[Brontecat]

No, yes, yes. Now answer my question.

yes i do believe there are crimes that are beyond mercy

As opposed to offering personal opinions, which is exactly what you're doing?

im offering personal opinions because religion is personal and individual and has a different significance and meaning to each individual

I shall rephrase that: I ask for the right to do what I want with my life without being punished for it for eternity.

is this to say that you are borderline atm? and that you are not entirely sure about whether you will be punished for eternity?

 

[Tumnus]

yes i do believe there are crimes that are beyond mercy


im offering personal opinions because religion is personal and individual and has a different significance and meaning to each individual



is this to say that you are borderline atm? and that you are not entirely sure about whether you will be punished for eternity?

Do you believe there is a sin (unforgiven) that will not keep you out of heaven?

 

[Graney]

Oh, realy? you would know? Have you read the books of Daniel and Revelation? I think its fair to say that it has prophesied things "to the letter" correctly.

Name one thing, spefically prophesied, that isn't so general it could be applied to a whole range of situations and societies.

We absolutely do not live in the biblical end times.

Also have you ever wondered where the whole notion of moral codes and values came from?

Most morals and values, including private property rights, freedoms from harm etc... can easily be seen as coming from biology. It is natural for any living being to be expected to take measures to protect its rightful possessions, and its physical self from harm. There is an evolutionary advantage in behaving cooperatively

A sense of justice, and wanting things to be 'fair' is born within all men. A legal system naturally eventuates from this. The nature of the minds of all living things mean we naturally strive for control and order.

Seems pretty simple to see how biology invented values.

Many do not realise the detrimental theories of evolution (as opposed to the teachings in the Bible). its what caused millions of deaths through nazi germany, communist russia, WW2 Japan through its concepts of some beings/creatures/humans being supperior to others.

Evolutionary theory didn't invent nationalism and racism. It has been adopted at times by followers of those ideologies, the two are correlated, but evolution does not cause or require racism.

Qn: would you rather live in a world that lives according to Biblical teachings or one that doesn't?

I'd rather live in a world that holds freedom and individual rights, especially protection from harm and property rights, in the highest regard.

 

[ablle]

If i am such a "daft cunt" could you deign yourself to enlighten me? i'm serious here. i'm willing to learn somethings new or gain someone elses perspective. People have different perspectives and knowledge - thus reach different conclusions. Also could it be that not everything taught in school is correct? Or do you fully trust Big Brother?

Sorry, but I have neither the time nor inclination to teach you about evolution. Just wiki it. However, I can assure you that WWII was not caused by evolution.

Also, what's taught in schools is (as far as I know) generally correct. Ironic how you suggest that not everything taught in schools is correct, while having complete faith in god and the bible.

Wait, your HSC is in 2009 and yet you claim evolution caused WWII...

yes i do believe there are crimes that are beyond mercy

And is not loving god one of those crimes?

is this to say that you are borderline atm? and that you are not entirely sure about whether you will be punished for eternity?

No. If I died right now and god existed then I'm sure I would be punished for eternity. That said, I'm pretty sure god doesn't exist (of course, no-one can ever be completely sure).

 

[Brontecat]

Do you believe there is a sin (unforgiven) that will not keep you out of heaven?

not neccesarily moreso without remorse and doing horibble things such as taking away the innocence of a child or something like that is inconceivably horrible

 

[Tumnus]

lol

I'd crush you, but I'm trying to price Call Options.

Here's a good book for you:

God is not Great (Christopher Hichens)
God Is Not Great: How Religion ... - Google Book Search

Maybe you should study the Bible in order to come to the conclusion if god is great or not?
What would be wrong with a world that simply kept the ten commandments (even if not the one about sabbath observance?) I'd say it would be very pleasant, extremely pleasant.

 

[Iron]

It is a shame that there is a sheer lack of intellect in the theistic posters over the last 5 pages and this really calls for no effort on the atheist forefront.

Additionally, it appears that many people have 'faith' without even reading the Bible or their respective religious texts. I think that is the most ignorant act of all, as you will find any intelligent atheist will have generally read the Bible, Torah, Qu'ran (at least parts), and a wide range of religious history/philosophy before making any arguments.

As a matter of relevance, I'm currently reading a brief overview of Buddhist sutras and finding it quite stimulating.

Edit:

In fact, Iron is the only theist I enjoy a discussion with, well at least at this point.

What other intelligent theists are regular posters? Or is this a paradoxical question: D ?

ily2;shy;;;

 

[katie tully]

:white flag:

 

[Silver Persian]

In fact, Iron is the only theist I enjoy a discussion with, well at least at this point.

What other intelligent theists are regular posters? Or is this a paradoxical question: D ?

Bradcube was quite good. Occasionally turns up now and again but isn't a regular anymore.

 

[Graney]

What would be wrong with a world that simply kept the ten commandments (even if not the one about sabbath observance?) I'd say it would be very pleasant, extremely pleasant.

And I think a world where I shit gold would be dandy, but the idea that the whole world could adhere unfailing to a set of ten inviolable rules at all times would require the removal of all free will and man would no longer be what we understand it currently means to be human.

The capacity, and reality of the ability and actuality of individuals defying the commandments is essential. If everyone followed the commandments ceaselessly and effortlessly, they would be meaningless. And life would be without necessary passion and drama.

 

[Tumnus]

Also, what's taught in schools is (as far as I know) generally correct. Ironic how you suggest that not everything taught in schools is correct, while having complete faith in god and the bible.



).

I believe the Bible to be inspired scripture, something that cannot be said of school texts. Many things may sound correct yet with the gaining of different knowledge and viewpoints things can get awry. Take history for example which is generally quite biased

 

[Kwayera]

Oh, realy? you would know? Have you read the books of Daniel and Revelation? I think its fair to say that it has prophesied things "to the letter" correctly. Also have you ever wondered where the whole notion of moral codes and values came from?

Yeah, our biology and evolution.

Many do not realise the detrimental theories of evolution (as opposed to the teachings in the Bible). its what caused millions of deaths through nazi germany, communist russia, WW2 Japan through its concepts of some beings/creatures/humans being supperior to others.

What? Also, I believe it's the Bible that instills the "humans are better than anything" value, not evolution.

Qn: would you rather live in a world that lives according to Biblical teachings or one that doesn't?

Without, definitely. Then we wouldn't have as many wars, we wouldn't hate women and gay people, and civilisation would have been much further advanced than it is now.

 

[ablle]

I believe the Bible to be inspired scripture

What's that?

Many things may sound correct yet with the gaining of different knowledge and viewpoints things can get awry.

This is 100% true of the bible.

Take history for example which is generally quite biased

As opposed to the bible, which is 100% correct and has no bias. All writing has subjective elements, especially the bible.

 

[Silver Persian]

The commandmenta are pretty dodgy.

Do we always have to respect our parents? Even if they're sexually abusive?

Why is there no commandment against causing others harm? Ten commandments do not prohibit torture or mindless violence.

 

[Kwayera]

Especially the Bible; the books of the apostles don't even agree with each other, and all of them had crap inserted into them at later dates. Just like almost every other historic document!

 

[Kwayera]

The commandmenta are pretty dodgy.

Do we always have to respect our parents? Even if they're sexually abusive?

Why is there no commandment against causing others harm? Ten commandments do not prohibit torture or mindless violence.

The "Ten Commandments" aren't even the real Ten Commandments. Compare Exodus 20:1-17 and Deuteronomy 5:6-21 with Exodus 34:10-26. The Real Ten Commandments Are Not What You Think