The Iraq War (2 Viewers)

[Pilgrim]

Was thinking the other day. I didnt agree with the Iraq war. Didnt agree with howard sending in aussies. Didnt agree with Afganistan.

But I feel alot safer knowing the president of America isnt scared of blowing the fuck out of those countries that put us in danger. To be totally honest. If he nuked the fuck out of North Korea and Iran, I wouldnt really care. The fact that Johnny Howard supports america is great, because in the end we've got the strongest country in the world backing us up.

Sounds fucked up, but i just thought id be honest and tell it how it is.

Also im pretty sick of people saying "oh i feel sorry for the troops being sent out". jesus christ if we're paying soldiers to train for a war theyll never fight, id be pissed off. They signed up to the army, its not like its conscription. They knew what they entered into.

 

[KFunk]

Re: To be honest

But I feel alot safer knowing the president of America isnt scared of blowing the fuck out of those countries that put us in danger. To be totally honest. If he nuked the fuck out of North Korea and Iran, I wouldnt really care.

If that's the case then I think you're too detached from the situation. I can't quite see how countless civillian deaths can be painted in a morally positive way.

 

[Iron]

Re: To be honest

I can't quite see how countless civillian deaths can be painted in a morally positive way.

Clearly because we have a trained military just laying around in a bored fashion. It's out duty to give them war

 

[frog12986]

Re: To be honest

In the spirit of this thread.. just a question..

Why is war and conflict so condemned in the modern era? Many individuals discount the pivotal role that war has played throughout the history of mankind in consolidating ideals or particular ways of life. Conflict has been a mechanism through which issues have been resolved, tyrants removed, and ideology promoted.

Whilst most people believe that we are more repsonsive to the externalities of war (such as civilian casualties etc), in doing so, are we allowing the world to develop to a point where there is a greater likelihood of full scale international conflict at some point in the not too distant future?

As the old saying goes, "The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil, is for good men to do nothing".. yet in the post-modern era, the analysis of 'good men' has created a situation where we reduce our conviction in our way of life, and our values, and fail to question the validity of the ideals of others.

 

[lengy]

Re: To be honest

I'd like to see you saying that when war is upon you and your life is distrupted by the on going conflict, the people around you dying and you living in fear of your life.

 

[frog12986]

Re: To be honest

I'd like to see you saying that when war is upon you and your life is distrupted by the on going conflict, the people around you dying and you living in fear of your life.

The thing is that sooner or later that situation will occur.. Conflict is a natural progression, and occurs every day, in every society. Large scale conflict, whilst not as prevalent, is as inevitable whether we as a society like it or not; it is ingrained in the human psyche..

As the power of the US wanes, and nations in the Middle East and Asia prosper, many people will come to realise the relative importance of strengthening our support for such a nation while we can..

One of the biggest weaknesses that has developed, is society's ability to underestimate the nature of the human (or animal) form..Whilst we percieve ourselves to be 'rational' for preventing the occurrence of such situations in our own backyard, we cannot control the irrationality of others..

 

[Iron]

Re: To be honest

globalisation

 

[Captain Gh3y]

Re: To be honest

I can't quite see how countless civillian deaths can be painted in a morally positive way.

Nor can I, which is why Saddam who caused a million or so, and now the terrorists in Iraq causing thousands more have to be beaten, and we have to support the troops. We also have to stop listening to the liberal-biased [liberal in the American sense] media who deliberately abstain from reporting terrorist casualties, and the progress in rebuilding Iraq that is being made. We have to ignore the self-loathing western intellectuals and media personalities who want to convince you that the US have killed half a million people in "another Vietnam" and that Saddam was generally a nice guy, and listen instead to the Iraqi bloggers.

 

[gerhard]

Re: To be honest

well im a pacifist so you guys can all get fucked

 

[Pilgrim]

Re: To be honest

I'd like to see you saying that when war is upon you and your life is distrupted by the on going conflict, the people around you dying and you living in fear of your life.

Yeah, and maybe if the whole world blows up ill think different. shut the fuck up. Im talking about possibilities effecting me. Im talking about current situations moron. not what ifs effecting me.

 

[banco55]

Re: To be honest

Was thinking the other day. I didnt agree with the Iraq war. Didnt agree with howard sending in aussies. Didnt agree with Afganistan.

But I feel alot safer knowing the president of America isnt scared of blowing the fuck out of those countries that put us in danger. To be totally honest. If he nuked the fuck out of North Korea and Iran, I wouldnt really care. The fact that Johnny Howard supports america is great, because in the end we've got the strongest country in the world backing us up.

Sounds fucked up, but i just thought id be honest and tell it how it is.

Also im pretty sick of people saying "oh i feel sorry for the troops being sent out". jesus christ if we're paying soldiers to train for a war theyll never fight, id be pissed off. They signed up to the army, its not like its conscription. They knew what they entered into.

I think given that we have less than a thousand troops in Iraq doing RELATIVELY safe work (I think the casualty count is less than 5) it makes sense to be there from a Realpolitik perspective. But it would be more reassuring in a way to have a competent, ruthless ally in America. It's no point being friends with the biggest guy in the schoolyard if he doesn't know how to fight. Next time they deal with these Arab savages I hope they don't bother trying to introduce them to the wonders of democracy. They are clearly not ready for anything beyond medieval, tribal rule writ large. Given that Europe is basically spiritually exhausted and emasculated we're going to need the US more and more.

 

[Not-That-Bright]

Re: To be honest

Saddam who caused a million or so

No he didn't.

 

[KFunk]

Re: To be honest

A point of clarification: what I wrote above was largely directed at the notion of using nuclear weapons (which I see as being an extremely irresponsible action) as apposed to warfare in general, which is more complicated and not so morally clear cut.

 

[Ennaybur]

Re: To be honest

Nor can I, which is why Saddam who caused a million or so, and now the terrorists in Iraq causing thousands more have to be beaten, and we have to support the troops. We also have to stop listening to the liberal-biased [liberal in the American sense] media who deliberately abstain from reporting terrorist casualties, and the progress in rebuilding Iraq that is being made. We have to ignore the self-loathing western intellectuals and media personalities who want to convince you that the US have killed half a million people in "another Vietnam" and that Saddam was generally a nice guy, and listen instead to the Iraqi bloggers.

But WHY are the terrorists killing more people? Arguably because of the actions of those who consider themselves the morally righteous and crusaders of Truth, Justice, and Freedom. So that is rather a null point - terrorists are killing so many people (because of them) therefore they must continue with their actions.

If by media you are referring to ABC and by terrorist casualties you are referring to those killed by terrorists, then I would challenge that the ABC and SBS actually have the terrorist and international activities represented quite well. Their reports go into much further detail (perhaps why some don't like them) but they have as much - and more- than the commercial stations whose idea of current affairs is which celebrity adopted what ethnic child and OH Look At That Puppy Riding A Surfboard.

 

[Captain Gh3y]

Re: To be honest

But WHY are the terrorists killing more people? Arguably because of the actions of those who consider themselves the morally righteous and crusaders of Truth, Justice, and Freedom. So that is rather a null point - terrorists are killing so many people (because of them) therefore they must continue with their actions.

If by media you are referring to ABC and by terrorist casualties you are referring to those killed by terrorists, then I would challenge that the ABC and SBS actually have the terrorist and international activities represented quite well. Their reports go into much further detail (perhaps why some don't like them) but they have as much - and more- than the commercial stations whose idea of current affairs is which celebrity adopted what ethnic child and OH Look At That Puppy Riding A Surfboard.

I'll keep saying this; WHY did more Japanese enlist in the army and fight AFTER the USA and Australia declared war on them? Maybe we shouldn't have, that way there'd have been less to fight.

No, I don't mean the ABC or SBS, I mean the entire mainstream media here and also in the USA, Reuters, AP, AFP, CNN, etc. All of them. And for about the 100000th time on this forum, no, changing the subject by having a rant about the news on ch9/10/7/the daily telegraph is not a useful argument.

Though mind you, people like Fisk and Negus are pretty much blatantly jihadi supporters.

 

[leetom]

Re: To be honest

In the spirit of this thread.. just a question..

Why is war and conflict so condemned in the modern era? Many individuals discount the pivotal role that war has played throughout the history of mankind in consolidating ideals or particular ways of life. Conflict has been a mechanism through which issues have been resolved, tyrants removed, and ideology promoted.

Because it has only been in the modern era that we have come to realise the true nature of war. That is, the savagery and brutality of warfare, when made known to the population, results in widesrpead disgust and disillusionment with any prolonged war effort. Most significantly, the Vietnam War enabled a nation's people to personally experience the conditions of war for the first time.

War was commonplace in the past because populations could be convinced of the righteousness of conflict and the glory of war. When advanced communications technology was developed, the reality of war finally became known. Also, the nature of madern warfare in particular and the massive devastation and suffering it entails usually outweighs whatever stands to be achieved through the initial conflict.

 

[Iron]

Re: To be honest

I believe it's primarily traced back to when women got the vote, as expressed in the UNGA Res 1365 (IV) codifying the recommendations of the convention on war and other manly things

 

[leetom]

Re: To be honest

Female suffrage= less wars?

 

[loquasagacious]

Re: To be honest

globalisation and faeries

How in the concievable future will globalisation/(neo-liberal institutionalism) overturn the entire system of inter-state relations and indeed the concept of the nation-state?

I'll keep saying this; WHY did more Japanese enlist in the army and fight AFTER the USA and Australia declared war on them? Maybe we shouldn't have, that way there'd have been less to fight.

I think my brain started oozing out my ears after I read this paragraph, it is honestly that much of a joke.

Your statement when pared down is: If we hadn't declared war on Japan not as many would have enlisted and we could wage war better. You didn't pause for one moment and consider that maybe they would have enlisted anyway if we had just started waging war without declaring it?????

 

[loquasagacious]

Re: To be honest

Female suffrage= less wars?

Clearly because they're wusses. The stats speak for themselves men murder, thieve and rape more than women. Hence the only way mankind can transcend our current repitive cycle of killing is for all men to be killed (irony lol lol) or be turned into women. Then a glorious utopia will begin, in anticipation I dub it: The peace of the clitoris - Long may it last!!!