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School Chaplaincy (2 Viewers)

What do you think of school chaplaincy

  • Its a bad idea

    Votes: 54 62.8%
  • Its a good idea

    Votes: 32 37.2%

  • Total voters
    86

goliwog

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What do you think of the idea of having school chaplains? I think it is good because it is not forced just optional for students and some people really need a bit of help from a religious view point. I had a scripture teacher and i thought it was great ! learnt a lot of things about society, lifestyle and values that we just didnt cover in other classes. Im now studying to be a teacher and as many phscologists now believe , spirituality is a form of intelegence which needs to be catered for :cool:
 

bigboyjames

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which fuck heads voted yes?

edit: 5 people voted yes. WTF *smacks head on table*
 
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goliwog

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Hey big boy james
If you dont Mind keeping this discussion at an adult level I would happily explain why I voted yes

To begin with phscological work by kohlberg and Fowler has shown that Morality and faith develops in 6 stages. This is not at all religious but it is a cognitive process which occurs in all humans even athiests. Faith development begins as a young baby , children who develop faith will cry when there parents leave them children who do not develop faith will not or will show a lack of emotional behaviour when seperated from parents (for an example) Now because moral and faith development is cognitive , if it does not complete its course it creates a lack of intelegence in other levels of lifestyle. This is why faith and morality needs to be explained. It doesnt matter from what faith but religion is needed to enhance development in teens.

Spirituality is not hocus pocus, it is a form of intelegence which develops in the non declarative memory system. If this system is not stimulated (which it will nbot be in mainstreem classes) it may lead to cognitive deficiancy. People need a reason for their actions , those who lean towards athiest logic and philosphical needs are already catered for in humanities and sciences. But without chapliains only athiests are catered for.

Also it is not in any way forced ... so if you dont want to have a chaplian you dont have to have one.
 

jb_nc

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No. Public school time should not be spent on religion and all things related. Send them home if they school doesn't have time to teach them real things.

Maybe as an alternative to sport with volunteers it is appropriate.
 

goliwog

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No. Public school time should not be spent on religion and all things related. Send them home if they school doesn't have time to teach them real things.

Maybe as an alternative to sport with volunteers it is appropriate.
But religion is a major contributor to our society and lifestyle. Are you saying we should be ignorant of our society? Are you also saying that students should not explore spiritual development which in the end has a direct bearing on the way they will live after school ?
 

bigboyjames

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goliwog said:
But religion is a major contributor to our society and lifestyle. Are you saying we should be ignorant of our society? Are you also saying that students should not explore spiritual development which in the end has a direct bearing on the way they will live after school ?
please state how.
 

goliwog

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Also, wouldn't this end up being a contradiction to some of the stuff being taught? I mean, put a hardline Catholic (this would probably be "monitored", but hey, we can sneak a science teacher into a public school, who then only teachers CREATIONISM, ignoring EVOLUTION - hello syllabus) "Chaplain" into school, where Year 10 (especially, sometimes early) are being taught about contraception? One end is saying "USE CONDOMS!" while the other is saying "DON'T! CONTRACEPTION IS MURRRRDERRR".
you must realise that essentially chapliancy is ecumenical. The churches work together and the individual irrespective of thier belief will teach on a consensus ofd the braoder religion. For this purpose lessons will be objective as possible. Also chapliancy is limited as spiritual abuse is a breach of child protection legislation and certain subjects/lesson plans which fall under the definition of spiritual abuse are not tolerated
 

bigboyjames

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Exphate said:
Morality and ethics are solely derived from religion (Christianity), and thus you can't have either without somehow experiencing Christianity. Also, the large majority of individuals (80%+) still regularly (every week) attend church, and confirm in all aspects to the teachings of the bible.
i think your a delusional fuck wit.

i dont care how many people attend church to discuss Jesus' second coming its irrelevant to the topic at hand.

your telling me that our morality and ethics are based on Christianity? not common sense? your joking me buddy. yes maybe a few hundred years you would be correct, but not in modern day society.

wtf is happening to this country? this country was founded and created for religion to be removed from schools, govts etc etc....we are fucking going backwards.

the problem with this idea is Muslim majority schools, Hindu majority schools, Buddhists majority schools will want their religious bulding in their schools. and due to political correctness discrimination laws the govt may have build all these other useless shit.

and another problem with this proposed idea is it will cause separatism in ethnic diverse schools.

dumb idea.
 
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goliwog

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Originally Posted by goliwog
But religion is a major contributor to our society and lifestyle. Are you saying we should be ignorant of our society? Are you also saying that students should not explore spiritual development which in the end has a direct bearing on the way they will live after school ?

please state how
.

Well no matter how you look at it for a start our laws are based on some religious philosophy weather it be Christian , humanist or atheist. For example Murder is not tolerated. Religion is also a motivating factor for social welfare. Religion is a common theme in literature and religion has a direct bearing in history. Values which have transcended from religious views are also responsible for the way we live. For example I have never heard of an atheist saying murder was right. This is a religious value that has affected citizens in Australian society weather you adhere to the religion or not. (I apologise for using such a blatant example) I wouldn’t say that religion forms society or that society forms religion but they do interact intensely.
 

goliwog

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Firstly, Chaplaincy isn't about lessons, the chaplains will be there in a peer-support role (similar to a counselor), thus voiding your argument about their lessons. As for "the broader religion", this notion is much like communism. Works well on paper, but in practice...not so well. You can try and convince a Priest to be sensitive to all religions, but at the end of the day, Christianity is their forte.
Im not sure if their is a clear distinction between sre and chaplaincy??? But Im fairly sure chaplains are able to fulfil functions of a special religious educator. (ill have to check on that one)

By the broader religion of christianity I really should have said the fundamentals. For me the fundementals of christianity in particular is life based skills and concepts such as Love your neighbour as yourself. This is what church councils have decided in the past (which i had the pleasure to attend at one stage). I know that my chaplains surveyed students asking them what they wanted to learn (when i was doing a practium for my teaching coarse at university) they acted on these and taught without breaking any guidlines set out by ecumenical councils
 

goliwog

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Stating murder is wrong is not an issue of religious nature, but of morality. If you wish to walk the path of "religion spawns morality", then you are walking into dark, dark territory, because it's absolute crap (even contradicting it using the example of athiests believing murder is wrong).
I understand where you are comming from and I did apologise for using such an example. But my concept is not that religion spawms morality , rather morality spawns religion. I am trying to say that religion spawns lifestyle.
 

bigboyjames

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i agree with you - 2000 years ago, religion was perhaps the best source of morality. Don't take this to mean that I am suggesting religion is valid in terms of divinity, it's positive effects say nothing about whether God exists, etc. In today's world, I think the need for it in schools, govts, etc etc has eroded.
 

KFunk

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goliwog said:
To begin with phscological work by kohlberg and Fowler has shown that Morality and faith develops in 6 stages. This is not at all religious but it is a cognitive process which occurs in all humans even athiests. Faith development begins as a young baby , children who develop faith will cry when there parents leave them children who do not develop faith will not or will show a lack of emotional behaviour when seperated from parents (for an example) Now because moral and faith development is cognitive , if it does not complete its course it creates a lack of intelegence in other levels of lifestyle. This is why faith and morality needs to be explained. It doesnt matter from what faith but religion is needed to enhance development in teens.

Spirituality is not hocus pocus, it is a form of intelegence which develops in the non declarative memory system. If this system is not stimulated (which it will nbot be in mainstreem classes) it may lead to cognitive deficiancy. People need a reason for their actions , those who lean towards athiest logic and philosphical needs are already catered for in humanities and sciences. But without chapliains only athiests are catered for.
Issues with your claims:
- Fowler's stages seem to address the way in which we deal with 'troublesome truths' such as found in the realms of morality, aesthetics, meaning and so forth. Certainly the term 'faith' is used, but I don't see why they are religion specific. I have dealt with ALL of the relevant issues in the context of philosophy.

- Where is the research to show that a lack of religious education / chaplain availability leads to cognitive deficits?

- Also, what are the cognitive domains in question (that are at risk) and what are the kinds of experiences needed to stimulate/develop them?

- Be careful about crossing the line between being descriptive and normative. That a given faculty tends to follow a given progression does not mean that it should follow this progression. For a simple reductio consider any hypothetical theory about the development of unpleasant qualities (e.g. a tendency towards violent thoughts).

- Not all cognitive functions are 'good'. Certainly, one could argue that they evolved and so confered some advantage upon us and therefore we should try to bolster them given their advantageous nature! But be careful here - they simply conferred a reproductive advantage. They don't necessarily subserve other non-reproductive moral ends. Also, they were advantageous at a certain point in our evolutionary history. What worked well in tribes won't necessarily work well in international society. In fact, this issue has been raised for moral reasoning (see Greene's dissertation, section 5.4). It may turn out that the culture wars that stem from the strength of our moral convictions produce our downfall.


goliwog said:
Also it is not in any way forced ... so if you dont want to have a chaplian you dont have to have one.
We have plenty of schools which really need more qualified psychologists who don't get funding. The offering of funding for chaplains (a) advantages religious institutions which tend to be private and so likely have less need for extra funding (note that it could amount to subsidising a staff member that would have been hired anyway) and (b) have the potential to be exclusionary if they are drawn from a particular religious sect.
 

goliwog

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i agree with you - 2000 years ago, religion was perhaps the best source of morality. Don't take this to mean that I am suggesting religion is valid in terms of divinity, it's positive effects say nothing about whether God exists, etc. In today's world, I think the need for it in schools, govts, etc etc has eroded.
well I think if there is no religion you need a suitable substitute. although i think science and critical thinking is needed i dont think its quite enough. But In the end of the day thats just my opinion. Thanks for sharing though :cool:
 

bigboyjames

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i dont care what people believe in but c'mon guys, in schools?!
 

bigboyjames

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Exphate said:
Yes, but what about the n amount of time before the "big 3" monotheistic religions? No morality?
yeah, burying new born females alive because they weren't males in Arabia is considered moral---your kidding yourself.
 

goliwog

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Kfunk
I did some research on moral faith and spiritual development some time ago. I used from the top of my head I remember that J.Ling had a lot to say about the link between spirituality and intelegence. Not being a physcologist Im not sure how credible it is nowadays but im sure it is to be considered. I also used work based on cedric grieve on perception and memory... and quite a few books on faith development


We have plenty of schools which really need more qualified psychologists who don't get funding. The offering of funding for chaplains (a) advantages religious institutions which tend to be private and so likely have less need for extra funding (note that it could amount to subsidising a staff member that would have been hired anyway) and (b) have the potential to be exclusionary if they are drawn from a particular religious sect.
I agree we need more psychologists but i feal that chaplians cover seperate ground to physcologists. Physcology is a science chaplaincy is a philosophy (but then again that is only my take on the difference between the two). as for being exclusive the door is open for anyone to go into schools. It is not forced and never should be.
 

Davadale

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Religion in schools.

Schools are provided by the government to educate children into becoming productive members of an econonomic workforce.

Should the $20,000 grant go to the education of a select number of kids spiritual beliefs? Whether those kids are in the majority or minority I am unclear. But ABS data seems to suggest that the number of "No Religion" individuals is now at over 15% and rising. Again there is also debate as to if this is an accurate statistic as argument has arisen over the fact that "Anglican" and "Catholic" are at the top of the survey, so many individuals may tick those boxes because they believe that they are the best fit if they were educated in a theist school or have a slight background of that nature.

To whoever said the morals and ethics come from religion, example given as Christianity. You are telling me someone quantified morals and ethics and thus proved through textual and social evidence that it was derived from religion, principally Christianity.

Back to my original point. In my belief there are plenty of opportunities for theists to practice their religion outside of school hours. If, as some religions require, you must perform any act of a religious nature, then sure feel free to do so, but not at taxpayers expense.

Put the $20,000 to providing better paid/educated teachers, new equipment, etc.
 

emytaylor164

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why is it that all the athiests on these forums are so closed minded when it comes to spiritual, issues, there are many christians in public schools, and if they can get support from a christian whilst there i think that is a great thing for them, even if they are not christian, a christian can be a great person to talk to about issues, we tend to be a good person to talk to, not to mention 90% of us i would say at least are trustworthy ( i was guessing this statistic to make my point)
 

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