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Bush's Creationism in schools remarks (3 Viewers)

Rafy

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Bush's Creationism in schools remarks.

Well Mr Bush is proposing that schools should teach creationism along side evolution in school science classes. He says that it will present a 'fair' picture of the debate by presenting 'the other side' however i coulndt agree move with what Susan Spath says at the end of the article. Its not the other side. It is just one ALternative view.

Schools should be moving toward secularism, and not teaching things disguised as arguments for god. Leave the religion for home.

/me hates bush more.


President stirs debate with evolution remark
By Elisabeth Bumiller in Washington
August 4, 2005

A debate between scientists and religious conservatives has escalated after the US President, George Bush, said the theory of intelligent design should be taught with evolution in public schools.

In an interview at the White House on Tuesday, Mr Bush appeared to endorse the push by many of his conservative Christian supporters.

The President said both theories ought to be properly taught "so people can understand what the debate is about".

Intelligent design, advanced by a group of academics and some biblical creationists, disputes the idea that natural selection - the force Charles Darwin suggested drove evolution - fully explains the complexity of life. Intelligent design proponents say life is so intricate that only a powerful guiding force, or intelligent designer, could have created it.

The President's conservative Christian supporters and the leading institute advancing intelligent design embraced Mr Bush's comments, while scientists and advocates of the separation of church and state disparaged them.

At the White House, where intelligent design has been discussed in a weekly Bible study group, Mr Bush's science adviser, John Marburger, sought to play down the President's remarks.

Mr Marburger said evolution was the cornerstone of modern biology and intelligent design was not a scientific concept. He said Mr Bush's remarks should be interpreted to mean that the President believed intelligent design should be discussed as part of the "social context" in science classes.

Critics say the theory is a thinly disguised argument for God. The theory has been gaining support in school districts in 20 states.

Critics saw Mr Bush's comment that "both sides" should be taught as the most troubling aspect of his remarks. "It sounds like you're being fair, but creationism is a sectarian religious viewpoint," said Susan Spath, a spokeswoman for the National Centre for Science Education. "It's not fair to privilege one religious viewpoint by calling it the other side of evolution."

The New York Times
 

withoutaface

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Evolution is generally accepted, but it's still a theory, and I believe that creationism (while I don't believe in it personally) should be presented at least briefly as an alternative to it.
 
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braindrainedAsh

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Where is the science in creationism? In relgious studies, yeah teach it all you want. But how is creationism science?

And yes, I feel public schools should be secular. By being secular they can best meet the needs of a diverse range of students. And I agree with the final point made as well.... Christianity is not the only opposing view to evolution, why is it priviledged above views held by Muslims, Buddhists, Daoists, whatever. This is why public schools need to be secular, to best accomodate people of all religious faiths and cultural backgrounds.
 

MoonlightSonata

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The concepts of creationism and intelligent design are not part of science, they are issues for metaphysics. Hence it should be part of a philosophy course, not high school science.

Besides which, the acceptance of evolution in the global scientific community is virtually indubitable. "Intelligent design" is just an obscure alternate theory (with many, many flaws) that was for the most part killed off a few hundred years ago by Hume.
 

Not-That-Bright

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"There is <list evidence> of evolution occuring, the theory that creationists have come to based on <list lack of evidence> has lead them to believe that evolution is flawed."

I feel sorry for creationists that want that sort of comparison to appear in textbooks... a few generations time they'll look like looneys.
 

walrusbear

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Not-That-Bright said:
"There is <list evidence> of evolution occuring, the theory that creationists have come to based on <list lack of evidence> has lead them to believe that evolution is flawed."

I feel sorry for creationists that want that sort of comparison to appear in textbooks... a few generations time they'll look like looneys.
i thought they looked stupid now??
 

Not-That-Bright

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Touche`... however I was more trying to make an inference into the idea that the reason why they probably want creationism included in text books is because if it is not then due to learning something else people will think evolution is the only answer.
 

Xayma

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Not-That-Bright said:
"There is <list evidence> of evolution occuring, the theory that creationists have come to based on <list lack of evidence> has lead them to believe that evolution is flawed."

I feel sorry for creationists that want that sort of comparison to appear in textbooks... a few generations time they'll look like looneys.
Do you really think they would buy the textbooks from anyone other then a christian organisation?

It's evolution chapter will be shocking.
 

Not-That-Bright

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True, but I have no real problem with creationism being placed beside evolution... probably have to put in creative design theory too lol

I just think it'll make christians look stupid... so you're right, they probably want to produce books with a small paragraph on evolution. "There are some highly controversial, speculative, non-factual, theories involving something called 'evolution'."
 

Xayma

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'Evolution says that life appeared due to random mutations, producing the complex organisms you see today at random'

'Intelligent design demonstrates that the wide variety and complexity of life today could not have been done through random chance.

Ever wonder how many moving parts are in your body?

The eye is very similar to many high tech camera lenses of today...' etc
 

Serius

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yeah i completely dissagree with creationism. its most likely wrong and thats all therie is to it. the only scientists that agree with creationism are fools who cant judge what the facts are.

like i dont think its even a religious debate because god and evolution arent mutually exclusive, just because evolution is true doesnt mean god doesnt exist.

but these fools try and cling to old ideas... while we are at it why dont we go back to preaching that the world is only a few thousand years old and is flat? n\no one is saying that creationism is wrong, it could possibly be right, but we arent talking about the minute possibility that it is right.... in a scientific debate the more likely theory is right

people give bullshit reasons for arguing against evolution like " its only a theory" well thats right, it is a theory and the entire credible scientific community takes it as true, just like the theory of gravity is "only a theory" and yet everyone realises that gravity exists. Theory in these circumstances means the most likely reason, where it is impossible to know with 100% accuracy the truth

but you dont see these idiots arguing that the forces we feel is actually god holding us to the planet or some such shit

creationism is for people trapepd in the past, grow a brain and rejoin society in the age of enlightenment
 

Captain pi

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withoutaface said:
Evolution is generally accepted, but it's still a theory, and I believe that creationism (while I don't believe in it personally) should be presented at least briefly as an alternative to it.
Creationism is not a theory in the same sense that evolution is a theory. The theory of evolution is falsifiable; creationism is not.

If it must be taught in science classes (which I highly doubt), creationism should only be taught as an example of a poor, vacuous pseudo-scientific doctrine.
 

loquasagacious

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The only possible place for it (in my mind) would be as placing the Theory of Evolution in a social context.

Eg "When Darwin's theories were first released they were released into a devoutely christian society (interesting aside that Darwin was a Minister). As such society as a whole believed in Creationism and Darwin was widely derided (que caricature showing darwin as a chimp). The intellectual world at the time had previously been exposed to Lamarks theories of inherited characteristics.... enter discussion of Lamarck v Darwin".

And there you have it a basic outline of a half-hour to an hour lesson in which the two main opposing theories to Darwins (at the time) are discussed.
 

LadyBec

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braindrainedAsh said:
Where is the science in creationism? In relgious studies, yeah teach it all you want. But how is creationism science?

And yes, I feel public schools should be secular. By being secular they can best meet the needs of a diverse range of students. And I agree with the final point made as well.... Christianity is not the only opposing view to evolution, why is it priviledged above views held by Muslims, Buddhists, Daoists, whatever. This is why public schools need to be secular, to best accomodate people of all religious faiths and cultural backgrounds.
completly agreed. sure, intelligent design is a theory, but by teaching it alongside darwins theory, we're almost saying that in a way they're equal, which they aren't.
Besides why should we teach the scientifc and christain theories, and then leave out all the other religions, its not excatly fair to them, and it is pushing one religion over others.
Plus, like NTB said, they're gonna look like totall idiots in the end for clinging to creationism
 

Slidey

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I'd type stuff in response to bush's trash, but it's already been done for me:

Botanical Society of America's "Statement on Evolution"
The Botanical Society of America has as its members professional scientists, scholars, and educators from across the United States and Canada, and from over 50 other countries. Most of us call ourselves botanists, plant biologists, or plant scientists, and members of our profession teach and learn about botanical organisms using well established principles and practices of science.

Evolution represents one of the broadest, most inclusive theories used in pursuit of and in teaching this knowledge, but it is by no means the only theory involved. Scientific theories are used in two ways: to explain what we know, and to pursue new knowledge. Evolution explains observations of shared characteristics (the result of common ancestry and descent with modification) and adaptations (the result of natural selection acting to maximize reproductive success), as well as explaining pollen:eek:vule ratios, weeds, deceptive pollination strategies, differences in sexual expression, dioecy, and a myriad of other biological phenomena. Far from being merely a speculative notion, as implied when someone says, “evolution is just a theory,” the core concepts of evolution are well documented and well confirmed. Natural selection has been repeatedly demonstrated in both field and laboratory, and descent with modification is so well documented that scientists are justified in saying that evolution is true.

Some people contend that creationism and its surrogate, “intelligent design,” offers an alternative explanation: that organisms are well adapted and have common characteristics because they were created just so, and they exhibit the hallmarks of intelligent design. As such, creationism is an all inclusive explanation for every biological phenomenon. So why do we support and teach evolution and not creationism/“intelligent design” if both explain the same phenomena? Are botanists just dogmatic, atheistic materialists, as some critics of science imply? Hardly, although scientists are routinely portrayed by creationists as dogmatic. We are asked, “Why, in all fairness, don’t we teach both explanations and let students decide?”

The fairness argument implies that creationism is a scientifically valid alternative to evolution, and that is not true. Science is not about fairness, and all explanations are not equal. Some scientific explanations are highly speculative with little in the way of supporting evidence, and they will stand or fall based upon rigorous testing. The history of science is littered with discarded explanations, e.g., inheritance of acquired characters, but these weren’t discarded because of public opinion or general popularity; each one earned that distinction by being scientifically falsified. Scientists may jump on a “band wagon” for some new explanation, particularly if it has tremendous explanatory power, something that makes sense out of previously unexplained phenomena. But for an explanation to become a mainstream component of a theory, it must be tested and found useful in doing science.

To make progress, to learn more about botanical organisms, hypotheses, the subcomponents of theories, are tested by attempting to falsify logically derived predictions. This is why scientists use and teach evolution; evolution offers testable explanations of observed biological phenomena. Evolution continues to be of paramount usefulness, and so, based on simple pragmatism, scientists use this theory to improve our understanding of the biology of organisms. Over and over again, evolutionary theory has generated predictions that have proven to be true. Any hypothesis that doesn’t prove true is discarded in favor of a new one, and so the component hypotheses of evolutionary theory change as knowledge and understanding grow. Phylogenetic hypotheses, patterns of ancestral relatedness, based on one set of data, for example, base sequences in DNA, are generated, and when the results make logical sense out of formerly disparate observations, confidence in the truth of the hypothesis increases. The theory of evolution so permeates botany that frequently it is not mentioned explicitly, but the overwhelming majority of published studies are based upon evolutionary hypotheses, each of which constitutes a test of an hypothesis. Evolution has been very successful as a scientific explanation because it has been useful in advancing our understanding of organisms and applying that knowledge to the solution of many human problems, e.g., host-pathogen interactions, origin of crop plants, herbicide resistance, disease susceptibility of crops, and invasive plants.

For example, plant biologists have long been interested in the origins of crop plants. Wheat is an ancient crop of the Middle East. Three species exist both as wild and domesticated wheats, einkorn, emmer, and breadwheat. Archeological studies have demonstrated that einkorn is the most ancient and breadwheat appeared most recently. To plant biologists this suggested that somehow einkorn gave rise to emmer, and emmer gave rise to breadwheat (an hypothesis). Further evidence was obtained from chromosome numbers that showed einkorn with 14, emmer with 28, and breadwheat with 42. Further, the chromosomes in einkorn consisted of two sets of 7 chromosomes, designated AA. Emmer had 14 chromosomes similar in shape and size, but 14 more, so they were designated AABB. Breadwheat had chromosomes similar to emmer, but 14 more, so they were designated AABBCC. To plant biologists familiar with mechanisms of speciation, these data, the chromosome numbers and sets, suggested that the emmer and breadwheat species arose via hybridization and polyploidy (an hypothesis). The Middle Eastern flora was studied to find native grasses with a chromosome number of 14, and several goatgrasses were discovered that could be the predicted parents, the sources of the BB and CC chromosomes. To test these hypotheses, plant biologists crossed einkorn and emmer wheats with goatgrasses, which produced sterile hybrids. These were treated to produce a spontaneous doubling of the chromosome number, and as predicted, the correct crosses artificially produced both the emmer and breadwheat species. No one saw the evolution of these wheat species, but logical predictions about what happened were tested by recreating likely circumstances. Grasses are wind-pollinated, so cross-pollination between wild and cultivated grasses happens all the time. Frosts and other natural events are known to cause a doubling of chromosomes. And the hypothesized sequence of speciation matches their observed appearance in the archeological record. Farmers would notice and keep new wheats, and the chromosome doubling and hybrid vigor made both emmer and breadwheat larger, more vigorous wheats. Lastly, a genetic change in breadwheat from the wild goatgrass chromosomes allowed for the chaff to be removed from the grain without heating, so glutin was not denatured, and a sourdough (yeast infected) culture of the sticky breadwheat flour would inflate (rise) from the trapped carbon dioxide.

The actual work was done by many plant biologists over many years, little by little, gathering data and testing ideas, until these evolutionary events were understood as generally described above. The hypothesized speciation events were actually recreated, an accomplishment that allows plant biologists to breed new varieties of emmer and bread wheats. Using this speciation mechanism, plant biologists hybridized wheat and rye, producing a new, vigorous, high protein cereal grain, Triticale.

What would the creationist paradigm have done? No telling. Perhaps nothing, because observing three wheat species specially created to feed humans would not have generated any questions that needed answering. No predictions are made, so there is no reason or direction for seeking further knowledge. This demonstrates the scientific uselessness of creationism. While creationism explains everything, it offers no understanding beyond, “that’s the way it was created.” No testable predictions can be derived from the creationist explanation. Creationism has not made a single contribution to agriculture, medicine, conservation, forestry, pathology, or any other applied area of biology. Creationism has yielded no classifications, no biogeographies, no underlying mechanisms, no unifying concepts with which to study organisms or life. In those few instances where predictions can be inferred from Biblical passages (e.g., groups of related organisms, migration of all animals from the resting place of the ark on Mt. Ararat to their present locations, genetic diversity derived from small founder populations, dispersal ability of organisms in direct proportion to their distance from eastern Turkey), creationism has been scientifically falsified.

Is it fair or good science education to teach about an unsuccessful, scientifically useless explanation just because it pleases people with a particular religious belief? Is it unfair to ignore scientifically useless explanations, particularly if they have played no role in the development of modern scientific concepts? Science education is about teaching valid concepts and those that led to the development of new explanations.

Creationism is the modern manifestation of a long-standing conflict between science and religion in Western Civilization. Prior to science, and in all non-scientific cultures, myths were the only viable explanations for a myriad of natural phenomena, and these myths became incorporated into diverse religious beliefs. Following the rise and spread of science, where ideas are tested against nature rather than being decided by religious authority and sacred texts, many phenomena previously attributed to the supernatural (disease, genetic defects, lightning, blights and plagues, epilepsy, eclipses, comets, mental illness, etc.) became known to have natural causes and explanations. Recognizing this, the Catholic Church finally admitted, after 451 years, that Galileo was correct; the Earth was not the unmoving center of the Universe. Mental illness, birth defects, and disease are no longer considered the mark of evil or of God’s displeasure or punishment. Epileptics and people intoxicated by ergot-infected rye are no longer burned at the stake as witches. As natural causes were discovered and understood, religious authorities were forced to alter long-held positions in the face of growing scientific knowledge. This does not mean science has disproved the existence of the supernatural. The methodology of science only deals with the material world.

Science as a way of knowing has been extremely successful, although people may not like all the changes science and its handmaiden, technology, have wrought. But people who oppose evolution, and seek to have creationism or intelligent design included in science curricula, seek to dismiss and change the most successful way of knowing ever discovered. They wish to substitute opinion and belief for evidence and testing. The proponents of creationism/intelligent design promote scientific ignorance in the guise of learning. As professional scientists and educators, we strongly assert that such efforts are both misguided and flawed, presenting an incorrect view of science, its understandings, and its processes.


Authored by: J. E. Armstrong and J. Jernstedt, officers of the BSA.
Approved by the BSA Council: July 27, 2003
http://www.botany.org/newsite/announcements/evolution.php
 

Slidey

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The important thing to note is that, as a 'theory', Creationism is scientifically USELESS, as it does not ask questions about things or predict things, which makes it untestable AND not useful.

So even if Creationism were correct, science still would not care is it still would be useless.
 

SashatheMan

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they should teach only creaionism in religion school . i mean if they are religiious might aswell learn what u believe. and only real science which soemtihng that could be proven in all other schools.
 

heybraham

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Not-That-Bright said:
"There is <list evidence> of evolution occuring, the theory that creationists have come to based on <list lack of evidence> has lead them to believe that evolution is flawed."

I feel sorry for creationists that want that sort of comparison to appear in textbooks... a few generations time they'll look like looneys.
i certainly wouldn't mind textbooks going through any flaws or shortcomings of evolution...but creationism in textbooks? a bit of a touch-n-go area, however, i'm sure a bit of creationism can't be too much of a bad thing. knowledge is good.

and i certainly don't want anyone 'believing in science' as if school textbooks should be a definitive and central source of 'truth'. yes, it does happen.

'science without religion is lame, religion without science is blind.' einstein
 

loquasagacious

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They shouldn't teach creationism in religious schools.

That said if a country wants to criple its biological science sector then why not let them? What do I care if the United States lags behind the rest of the world in crucial areas of endevour and innovation? Them becoming the global equivalent of the Amish is no skin off my back.

On the other hand, I do believe that indoctrination of any kind is wrong and have great empathy with those subjected to it.
 

Rafy

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I'm just wondering where all the forum's religious nutters have gone too....
 

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