Fuck yeah Rudd is *OUTTA HERE* (2 Viewers)

[evatt]

For a new liberty.
read it.

Oh please, this stinks of Austrian school. The whole notion of anarcho-capitalism is antiquated and as irrelevant as Marxism. They fail to account for the nature of human existence.

Greed.
Hedonism.
Social responsibility.
The issue of welfare.
The public service.

The absolute need for a moderate, regulatory state.

You can't really be suggesting that the state itself is the problem?

 

[scuba_steve2121]

Oh please, this stinks of Austrian school. The whole notion of anarcho-capitalism is antiquated and as irrelevant as Marxism. They fail to account for the nature of human existence.

Greed.
Hedonism.
Social responsibility.
The issue of welfare.
The public service.

The absolute need for a moderate, regulatory state.

You can't really be suggesting that the state itself is the problem?

well it is. you may not like to admit that but it is

 

[SylviaB]

I don't think you can easily acquaint fiscal and public expenditure with incidences of debt. The US spends proportionately less on it's public services than the social democratic nations, and yet has more debt.

-50 cents of every dollar spent on healthcare in america is spent by the government
-it spends hundreds of billions of dollars on its military

The US is not remotely a limited government and so its debt is not a blight on the free market

 

[evatt]

-50 cents of every dollar spent on healthcare in america is spent by the government
-it spends hundreds of billions of dollars on its military

The US is not remotely a limited government and so its debt is not a blight on the free market

This precisely outlines my point. It is America's obdurate refusal to implement progressive universal health care, that renders health care so expensive. Without adequate government provision of health care, it falls to private enterprise, which has been shown in America to nothing more than narrowly self-interested. If you don't tax, then you must pay from public reserves. That's why its so expensive.

60% of all health insurance, is sponsored by employers. No real surprise there.

As for military spending, well you can hardly class arbitrary American unilateralism, as a logical reason for public expenditure. I'm sure the US would have had a much smaller deficit if they didn't invade iraq. (As strongly as I feel against Saddam's regime.)

 

[SylviaB]

Oh please, this stinks of Austrian school. The whole notion of anarcho-capitalism is antiquated and as irrelevant as Marxism. They fail to account for the nature of human existence.

HUMAN ACTION BY LUDWIG VON MISES

A book dedicated to why should have laissez faire capitalism because of human nature
for fucks sake

Greed.
Hedonism.

So are governments made up of benevolent angels?

No they're made up by.....wait for it...greedy hedonistic HUMANS.
To suggest a group of people with human nature need to exist in order to counteract human nature is ridiculous.

Social responsibility.

Nobody has a responsibility to 'society" so fuck that shit out of here.

The issue of welfare.

last year americans donated $300 billion to charity.

On a free makret:
-No taxes
-No inflation
-People will earn more
-people see an increased need for chairity
So this already huge sum would be larger

orivate charity is always better at helping the poor. governments have no incentive to get rid of poverty because it would mean reducing the size of government

The absolute need for a moderate, regulatory state.

You know nothing about economics if you think we need the state for "regulations"

You can't really be suggesting that the state itself is the problem?

Thats PRECISELY what I am suggesting.

the fact that you ask this demonstrates how little you know on the subject

learn about something before you criticise it

 

[Mongoosee]

hey guys mongoose here!

Rudd has give out free money to the poor and should be re-elected

 

[SylviaB]

This precisely outlines my point. It is America's obdurate refusal to implement progressive universal health care, that renders health care so expensive. Without adequate government provision of health care, it falls to private enterprise, which has been shown in America to nothing more than narrowly self-interested. If you don't tax, then you must pay from public reserves. That's why its so expensive.

you are retarded.

The reason healthcare is expensive in america is because a lack of free market.

large corporations can escape competion (because of regulations) and hence charge huge prices.

seriously learn about a subject before you talk about it

As for military spending, well you can hardly class arbitrary American unilateralism, as a logical reason for public expenditure. I'm sure the US would have had a much smaller deficit if they didn't invade iraq. (As strongly as I feel against Saddam's regime.)

???


government spend way too much on military

this is the fault of the government being ttoo large/powerful

i.e supports my argument

 

[Mongoosee]

you are retarded.

The reason healthcare is expensive in america is because a lack of free market.

large corporations can escape competion (because of regulations) and hence charge huge prices.

seriously learn about a subject before you talk about it



???


government spend way too much on military

this is the fault of the government being ttoo large/powerful

ie.e supports my argument

hey guys mongoose here!

you shouldn't call someone retarded he has an opinion

 

[jennyfromdabloc]

I don't think you can easily acquaint fiscal and public expenditure with incidences of debt. The US spends proportionately less on it's public services than the social democratic nations, and yet has more debt.

Yes but it spends way more on the military and generally has lower taxes.

 

[Existential]

wow this thread has failed

 

[jennyfromdabloc]

wow this thread has failed

Failed in what sense?

 

[evatt]

So are governments made up of benevolent angels?

No they're made up by.....wait for it...greedy hedonistic HUMANS.
To suggest a group of people with human nature need to exist in order to counteract human nature is ridiculous.



I recognize this point and agree with it. Though you hardly allow space for an analysis of democracy. Ideally, governments are accountable to the populace. Hence, hedonistic governance should tend to reflect a preoccupation with getting elected, hence their policies should reflect broader social expectations.

i.e. public services.


Nobody has a responsibility to 'society" so fuck that shit out of here.

This is idiocy. If it weren't for 'society' you probably wouldn't have been born in a functioning hospital, nor would have been educated in a proper school, nor would have been able to walk down the street (i.e. if their were one) without getting robbed.

The liberalist doctrine of greed and self-interest cannot be reconciled with arguments of enlightened anarcho-liberalism. If we are all greedy, and there is no state to reinforce my social obligations, then what is to stop me stealing from old Ms. Jones down the street. Nothing.





orivate charity is always better at helping the poor. governments have no incentive to get rid of poverty because it would mean reducing the size of government


Again, whilst I accept that governments are preoccupied with self-interest, you fail to account for political influence, namely where hedonistic governance should tend to reflect a preoccupation with getting elected, hence their policies should reflect broader social expectations. In this instance, social expectations of poverty alleviation, should be embedded in government policy.



You know nothing about economics if you think we need the state for "regulations"

You've got me all wrong. I've personally seen the shortcomings of government bureaucracy due to primeval human nature. I'm not some idealist who thinks that the government is the be all and end all, I just think that you're too pessimistic, and cannot explain how a state (i.e. society) can function without a government.

 

[evatt]

you are retarded.

The reason healthcare is expensive in america is because a lack of free market.

large corporations can escape competion (because of regulations) and hence charge huge prices.

seriously learn about a subject before you talk about it


You idiot, it is the free market which allows these enterprises to charge their fees. You think this would be allowed to occur in any other sane, progressive government aside from the US? It's simply an account of the US being fucked up.



???


government spend way too much on military

this is the fault of the government being ttoo large/powerful

i.e supports my argument

Again, you cannot take America as indicative of all governments. They are notoriously reactionary and backward. I was simply stating that WAR should not be seen as rational government expenditure.

 

[SylviaB]

I recognize this point and agree with it. Though you hardly allow space for an analysis of democracy. Ideally, governments are accountable to the populace. Hence, hedonistic governance should tend to reflect a preoccupation with getting elected, hence their policies should reflect broader social expectations.

1. Deomcracy is barbaric. No one should be able to vote away the money, rights or freedoms of anyone else.
2. Democracy 100% completely absolutely fails to regulate government.

Evidence: every democratic country that exists/has existed

This is idiocy. If it weren't for 'society' you probably wouldn't have been born in a functioning hospital,

I was born in a functioning hospital because some self interested fellow opened a (private) hospital.

nor would have been educated in a proper school,

i went to a state school (against my wishes)

hence, i wasn't educated in a proper school

I would have been much better off sitting in a library for 12 years

nor would have been able to walk down the street (i.e. if their were one) without getting robbed.

sigh..this is why we read books like for a new liberty before we criticise the idea of a stateless society

Again, whilst I accept that governments are preoccupied with self-interest, you fail to account for political influence, namely where hedonistic governance should tend to reflect a preoccupation with getting elected, hence their policies should reflect broader social expectations. In this instance, social expectations of poverty alleviation, should be embedded in government policy.

Your argument AUTOMATICALLY FAILS because politicians are not obliged in any way to follow the election promises.
Same shit different day

You've got me all wrong. I've personally seen the shortcomings of government bureaucracy due to primeval human nature. I'm not some idealist who thinks that the government is the be all and end all, I just think that you're too pessimistic, and cannot explain how a state (i.e. society) can function without a government.

I have reads literally dozens of books that have formed by views on how/why a stateless society would work. If you're not willing to spend the time reading even ONE before criticising the idea, then why do you expect me to be able to convicne you of anything?

 

[SylviaB]

You idiot, it is the free market which allows these enterprises to charge their fees. You think this would be allowed to occur in any other sane, progressive government aside from the US? It's simply an account of the US being fucked up.

1. There IS NO FREE MAKRET in america. NOT EVEN CLOSE.

2. On a free market, if the insurance companies charged huge fees they would get destroyed by competition.
There isnt a free makret and hence no one else can compete because of barriers to entry. sigh...

 

[evatt]

1. Deomcracy is barbaric. No one should be able to vote away the money, rights or freedoms of anyone else.
2. Democracy 100% completely absolutely fails to regulate government.

Evidence: every democratic country that exists/has existed



I was born in a functioning hospital because some self interested fellow opened a (private) hospital.



i went to a state school (against my wishes)

hence, i wasn't educated in a proper school

I would have been much better off sitting in a library for 12 years


sigh..this is why we read books like for a new liberty before we criticise the idea of a stateless society




Your argument AUTOMATICALLY FAILS because politicians are not obliged in any way to follow the election promises.
Same shit different day



I have reads literally dozens of books that have formed by views on how/why a stateless society would work. If you're not willing to spend the time reading even ONE before criticising the idea, then why do you expect me to be able to convicne you of anything?

You seem to be equally unwilling to recognise the deficiencies in your argument. I've actually borrowed The Market for Liberty, but have not gotten around to reading it. I will start tomorrow. How does that sound?

 

[SylviaB]

I will start tomorrow. How does that sound?

sounds beautiful

 

[evatt]

1. There IS NO FREE MAKRET in america. NOT EVEN CLOSE.

2. On a free market, if the insurance companies charged huge fees they would get destroyed by competition.
There isnt a free makret and hence no one else can compete because of barriers to entry. sigh...

Again, according to liberalist doctrine maximal market competition inevitably results in optimum social and economic outcomes. Right?

What will happen then, if SELF_INTEREST and HEDONISM causes PRIVATE ENTERPRISES to work together in their own SELF-INTEREST, to inflate prices. After all, liberalism tells us that everyone is driven by self interest. Can't this take the form of price gouging (i.e. petrol)?

 

[aussie-boy]

Imagine how rich society would be if everyone on this forum invested their mental capacity in productive activities in their spare time

 

[jennyfromdabloc]

Again, according to liberalist doctrine maximal market competition inevitably results in optimum social and economic outcomes. Right?

What will happen then, if SELF_INTEREST and HEDONISM causes PRIVATE ENTERPRISES to work together in their own SELF-INTEREST, to inflate prices. After all, liberalism tells us that everyone is driven by self interest. Can't this take the form of price gouging (i.e. petrol)?

Basically this is what will happen:

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