Does God exist? (11 Viewers)

[langa0909]

:burn:

 

[race_car99]

:burn:

The only thing that could make this better is if he baked this up with proof' so here i go



only things that can come out of believing in god (going to church)
-you die on the way church
-youspend money on petrol on the way to church
-you give money to the church
-you waste time believing in something not prooven

 

[BradCube]

Us: But that book shows that your God is an asshole! Look at all these people he's condemning because they don't like him!

I regard these sorts of problems as a secondary issues when it comes to looking at the question of "Does God Exist? Firstly because it assumes that only the Christian conception of God is worth defeating, and then secondly, because if a Christian is to give up belief in the innerrancy of the bible, this fails to be a problem. A Christian could still affirm the truths of the gospel and of Jesus while making the admission that some of what was recorded in the Old Testament is not accurate or contains errors in it's portrayal of Yahweh.

Personally, I don't think the Christian has to go to these lengths to maintain their belief in their conception of God - there are resources that examine the "challenging" morality in the Old Testament in a more positive light. Nevertheless if one is able to show that biblical inerrancy is not a primary doctrine to Christian belief (and is instead secondary) then such a Christian is not being heretical in their beliefs. Some current evangelical proponents that don't hold to biblical innerancy include Wesley Morriston and Randal Rauser.

I've attached two papers written by Paul Copan (who does holds to biblical inerrancy) that address many of the issues surrounding morality in the Old Testament. The first, "Is Yaweh a Moral Monster?" outlines and examines some of the criticisms put forward by "new atheists" and the second, "Yahweh Wars and the Canaanites" examines objections to the first essay put forward by Morriston and Rauser.

The papers were originally published in the Philosophia Christi journal, Volumes 10 and 11. (A great resource which I've only recently subscribed to)

 

[ComingUpForAir]

I regard these sorts of problems as a secondary issues when it comes to looking at the question of "Does God Exist? Firstly because it assumes that only the Christian conception of God is worth defeating, and then secondly, because if a Christian is to give up belief in the innerrancy of the bible, this fails to be a problem. A Christian could still affirm the truths of the gospel and of Jesus while making the admission that some of what was recorded in the Old Testament is not accurate or contains errors in it's portrayal of Yahweh.

Personally, I don't think the Christian has to go to these lengths to maintain their belief in their conception of God - there are resources that examine the "challenging" morality in the Old Testament in a more positive light. Nevertheless if one is able to show that biblical inerrancy is not a primary doctrine to Christian belief (and is instead secondary) then such a Christian is not being heretical in their beliefs. Some current evangelical proponents that don't hold to biblical innerancy include Wesley Morriston and Randal Rauser.

I've attached two papers written by Paul Copan (who does holds to biblical inerrancy) that address many of the issues surrounding morality in the Old Testament. The first, "Is Yaweh a Moral Monster?" outlines and examines some of the criticisms put forward by "new atheists" and the second, "Yahweh Wars and the Canaanites" examines objections to the first essay put forward by Morriston and Rauser.

The papers were originally published in Philosophia Christi journal, Volumes 10 and 11. (A great resource which I've only recently subscribed to)

you exude that pungent 'our-beliefs-are-based-on-more-than-just-wishfulthinking' stench..
subscribe to the paralizingly obvious fact that we're just atoms and move on..

 

[BradCube]

you exude that pungent 'our-beliefs-are-based-on-more-than-just-wishfulthinking' stench..

That is a stench? Well to be perfectly honest, I wish more people on these boards had that stench (theists, atheists & agnostics alike). Would certainly make for more in depth debates don't you think?

 

[ComingUpForAir]

That is a stench? Well to be perfectly honest, I wish more people on these boards had that stench (theists, atheists & agnostics alike). Would certainly make for more in depth debates don't you think?

lol you thinks there's an actual 'debate'...?
just deluded kids talking out their ass, as if they know the mind of 'god', getting the math drop'd on them

 

[SylviaB]

Can anyone disprove my hypothesis that the universe was created yesterday, as it currently exists, and god just filled our heads with fake memories?

 

[moll.]

Can anyone disprove my hypothesis that the universe was created yesterday, as it currently exists, and god just filled our heads with fake memories?

Go watch Dark City.
Now, child!
Run!

 

[Continuum]

^ good movie

 

[Smile_Time351]

I regard these sorts of problems as a secondary issues when it comes to looking at the question of "Does God Exist? Firstly because it assumes that only the Christian conception of God is worth defeating, and then secondly, because if a Christian is to give up belief in the innerrancy of the bible, this fails to be a problem. A Christian could still affirm the truths of the gospel and of Jesus while making the admission that some of what was recorded in the Old Testament is not accurate or contains errors in it's portrayal of Yahweh.

Personally, I don't think the Christian has to go to these lengths to maintain their belief in their conception of God - there are resources that examine the "challenging" morality in the Old Testament in a more positive light. Nevertheless if one is able to show that biblical inerrancy is not a primary doctrine to Christian belief (and is instead secondary) then such a Christian is not being heretical in their beliefs. Some current evangelical proponents that don't hold to biblical innerancy include Wesley Morriston and Randal Rauser.

I've attached two papers written by Paul Copan (who does holds to biblical inerrancy) that address many of the issues surrounding morality in the Old Testament. The first, "Is Yaweh a Moral Monster?" outlines and examines some of the criticisms put forward by "new atheists" and the second, "Yahweh Wars and the Canaanites" examines objections to the first essay put forward by Morriston and Rauser.

Some good arguments and some excellent sources- albeit a little misguided in capturing the source of my argument.

While the arguments of all non-believers (including myself) on this particular board are aimed against the contemporary Christian view, this is only for the sake of the argument, and the fact that no modern-day Christian is willing to give up belief in the infallibility of the Bible (mostly because the intelligence required to do so is self-defeating with the initial belief itself), then the debate continues and our argument remains strong. Otherwise, some solid points, a crisis could be afoot.

 

[molmont]

Epicurus wisely said:

Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?

 

[spyro14]

subscribe to the paralizingly obvious fact that we're just atoms and move on..

If we admit we are just atoms, then why bother moving on?

Who wants to jump out of our pointless existance first?

 

[mcflystargirl]

Epicurus wisely said:

Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent.
Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent.
Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil?
Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?

It is not God that made us sin, he gave us free will, we stuffed up.
he is able, he is willing, he is going to get rid of the evil eventually

 

[Cookie182]

It is not God that made us sin, he gave us free will, we stuffed up.
he is able, he is willing, he is going to get rid of the evil eventually

If he is able and willing, it would be gone.

The reason we see no change is because "it" or "sin" doesn't exist in the first place. Like any good marketers introducing a new product, religion had to create something.

They want us to believe- to avoid the very one thing they can not even explain.

 

[Garygaz]

Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent.

You could disagree with that generalisation on a few different levels.

 

[mcflystargirl]

If he is able and willing, it would be gone.

The reason we see no change is because "it" or "sin" doesn't exist in the first place. Like any good marketers introducing a new product, religion had to create something.

They want us to believe- to avoid the very one thing they can not even explain.

the thing is christianity is such a logical thing, everything in christianity makes sense

God created the world, and it was perfect
in comes humans, who were initally sinless, then they stuff up,
here comes sin, and death, which causes all the bad stuff in the world
then jesus comes in, God becomes man, lives a perfect life
jesus Dies, to take the punishment for all the stuff humans do wrong, instead of us been punished, all we have to do is believe and be genuinely in our heart sorry for our sin, then we can be in a relationship with him
jesus will return, take away all the bad stuff, judge, and save those who believe in him

The thing is christianity explains most stuff in the world, just the world is blinded by sin and does not see it.

 

[Garygaz]

the thing is christianity is such a logical thing, everything in christianity makes sense

God created the world, and it was perfect
in comes humans, who were initally sinless, then they stuff up,
here comes sin, and death, which causes all the bad stuff in the world
then jesus comes in, God becomes man, lives a perfect life
jesus Dies, to take the punishment for all the stuff humans do wrong, instead of us been punished, all we have to do is believe and be genuinely in our heart sorry for our sin, then we can be in a relationship with him
jesus will return, take away all the bad stuff, judge, and save those who believe in him

The thing is christianity explains most stuff in the world, just the world is blinded by sin and does not see it.

I am speechless. I do not know how to respond. Looks like Christianity IS logical after all!

 

[Kwayera]

the thing is christianity is such a logical thing, everything in christianity makes sense

God created the world, and it was perfect
in comes humans, who were initally sinless, then they stuff up,
here comes sin, and death, which causes all the bad stuff in the world
then jesus comes in, God becomes man, lives a perfect life
jesus Dies, to take the punishment for all the stuff humans do wrong, instead of us been punished, all we have to do is believe and be genuinely in our heart sorry for our sin, then we can be in a relationship with him
jesus will return, take away all the bad stuff, judge, and save those who believe in him

The thing is christianity explains most stuff in the world, just the world is blinded by sin and does not see it.

I'm sorry, but that doesn't make any sense, nor does it explain anything. Perfection? Sin? It's all a bit specious.

 

[BradCube]

Some good arguments and some excellent sources- albeit a little misguided in capturing the source of my argument.

Aye, I realize that the sources went a little off topic, but figured it tied in enough to that original statement I qouted to be worth including - plus it was just interesting

While the arguments of all non-believers (including myself) on this particular board are aimed against the contemporary Christian view, this is only for the sake of the argument, and the fact that no modern-day Christian is willing to give up belief in the infallibility of the Bible (mostly because the intelligence required to do so is self-defeating with the initial belief itself), then the debate continues and our argument remains strong. Otherwise, some solid points, a crisis could be afoot.

But I've just presented two current evangelical scholars that are willing to give up their belief in biblical innerancy, so clearly some modern-day Christians are willing to give up the belief. I think I personally could give up the belief in innerancy if forced. To be sure, it would be something I would wrestle with for a long time (and I don't currently see that it is required), but I think it could be given up without being obviously heretical.

I'm a little perplexed at how giving up the belief in innerancy would be self-defeating. Are you implying that all Christian belief is circular?

 

[Cpt_Renegade]

50.87% believe? how embarrassing for mankind. Gods in the same league as Santa clause, the tooth fairy, peter pan etc.