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Israel and Palestine (3 Viewers)

Atilla89

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Re: Israel & Palestine

davidw89 said:
This is coming from someone who cant spell, who has no common sense and cant quote properly? On top of that, you seem quite active in this forum supporting Israelis? What is your purpose/motive? What do you aim to achieve by rebutting people with such a subjective views that defy logic?
Can't spell? What a lame come back to my demolishing of your arguments. This is coming from someone that doesn't use correct grammer in their sentences.

What I aim to do is entirely my own business, not yours.
 

JaredR

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Re: Israel & Palestine

Why can't Jews and Palestinians make peace?

It may come as little surprise that efforts to resolve the Israeli-Palestinian conflict bear striking similarities to approaches to the treatment of mental illness.

There are those who advocate talk sessions, in which the same problems may be discussed and analyzed for years on end before a reaching a breakthrough ? which may prove fleeting at best.

There are the proponents, as well as the vociferous, morally outraged critics, of performing radical forms of surgery to cure intractable ills.

There are those who believe that religion, not science or reason, can put the demons to rest.

And, of course, in the Middle East as in psychotherapy, it is at times difficult to tell with certainty which are the doctors and which the patients.

Analysis of the Israel-Palestine impasse is often thoughtful and frequently creative, but has been unable to yield a working solution to the dispute. Whole libraries of journalistic observation, learned commentary and academic research have been devoted to one version or another of the central question - What's wrong with these people? Why in heaven's name are the Israelis and Palestinians unable to make so much as a semblance of peace? The data mount, the pile of prospective solutions towers higher by the year, but the Israel-Palestine war stumbles on.

In general, fresh approaches to the conflict tend to be activist in nature. Which makes all the more revolutionary the thesis of a remarkable new proposal: Let the Middle East alone.

A recent Prospect magazine cover is headed "Why the Middle East doesn't matter," highlighting a remarkable article by historian Edward Luttwak which, with a perverse elan and a clearly intentional political incorrectness, suggests how analysts and well-meaning foreign governments may have gotten the Mideast conflict dead wrong.

"The operational mistake that Middle East experts keep making is the failure to recognize that backward societies must be left alone," Luttwak writes. He attacks what he calls Arab-Israeli catastrophism, or "five minutes to midnight" syndrome, in which the Mideast conflict is continually viewed as the trigger of an imminent apocalypse (just this week, columnist Roger Cohen, writing in The New York Times, alluded to the Israeli-Palestinian confrontation as "The mother of all conflicts").

According to Luttwak, both the hardline and "softline" approaches are doomed to failure. Hardliners keep suggesting that with a bit of well-aimed violence ('the Arabs only understand force') compliance will be obtained. But what happens every time is an increase in hostility; defeat is followed not by collaboration, but by sullen non-cooperation and active resistance too."

As for "softliners,' who argue "that if only this or that concession were made, if only their policies were followed through to the end and respect shown, or simulated, hostility would cease and a warm Mediterranean amity would emerge," Luttwak counters that Islam "promises superiority in all things for its believers, so that the scientific and technological and cultural backwardness of the lands of Islam generates a constantly renewed sense of humiliation and of civilisational defeat. That fully explains the ubiquity of Muslim violence, and reveals the futility of the palliatives urged by the softliners."

"With neither invasions nor friendly engagements, the peoples of the Middle East should finally be allowed to have their own history, the one thing that Middle East experts of all stripes seem determined to deny them," Luttwak concludes.

There are signs that Luttwak may already be getting his wish. Last month, at the height of the Hamas-Fatah fighting, Newsweek found it necessary to title a cover piece "Why Gaza matters."

It may also be argued that the world's obsession with the Middle East conflict, the media's wall-to-wall coverage of it - as opposed to Darfur, say, or other conflicts in which many more people are dying in places the media finds less attractive to major viewing markets - all this compounded by the extremism and lack of perspective of many Diaspora supporters of Israel or of Palestine, works to the advantage of militants and makes the conflict that much more difficult to solve.

The impression Luttwak's article makes, is that even if Israelis and Palestinians cannot find a solution, the world will manage somehow. He's probably right. What he doesn't specify, doubtless intentionally, is how Israelis and Palestinians are going to be able to manage.

What, then, are some of the factors making this particular form of mental illness so resistant to treatment? What, in sum, is the matter with these people? Herewith a few:



They are profoundly, irreparably childish in a way only adults deprived of a childhood can be.


They are addicted to blame as a way of life. They cannot look at themselves as anything other than victims. They cannot look at the other as anything other than usurpers.


They desperately need help and advice, but cannot bring themselves to accept it. They tend to be unable to help themselves. They tend to act in ways which defeat their own declare aims. They tend to declare aims which defeat their own ability to reach a solution. They tend to be unable to shed or modify the aims which keep them from providing for the welfare of their own people, aims which keep them from making peace with their neighbors.


Their spiritual advisors, who, it turns out, are also political kingpins, insist that scripture is proof of real estate ownership.


Their hardliners, bolstered by their supporters abroad ? who are often even more extreme in their views, equate compromise with treason, failure of will, selling out, crimes against history.


Convinced of its own moral purity, neither side can abide the idea of moral equivalency any more than it can accept the concept of shared responsibility for the problems and their eventual solution.

Inevitably, perhaps, it may in the end take the darkest cloud on the horizon to supply a silver lining for any of this.

In short, we may have radical Islamism to thank for doing what no government of good will, no Western mediation, could have done.

It took the waking nightmare of Islam to force the Arab league to endorse a Hail Mary deal with Israel. It took the same waking nightmare to force Israel to stop sidestepping the offer it could not afford to refuse.

Will this be of any help? We may find out on Thursday, when the foreign ministers of Egypt and Jordan are expected to lead an Arab League mission to Israel for talks on the pan-Arab peace initiative. The meeting, if it comes off, will be the first visit to Israel by an official delegation from the 22-member organization.

In the meanwhile - and doubtless afterward - therapy is indicated. That, and prayer.
http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/879879.html
 

BritneySpears

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Re: Israel & Palestine

The above article remind me of jenin Massacre aka Jenin Big Lie where arabs claimed thousands of palestinians were killed. The UN inspected and found 52 people dead, including 38 muslim terrorists :D Which was a response to six suicide bombings by palestinian terrorists against israeli civilians. They sure know how to hype up the conflict and exaggerate the number of people killed. No wonder the world does not care the boy who cried wolf!
 

Atilla89

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Re: Israel & Palestine

Miles Edgeworth said:
Pity Zionists don't exist (Zionism focuses on the creation of the nation of Israel, which exists, unlike Palestine which should be part of greater Israel)

kthx.
Zionism...
 

loquasagacious

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Peace in Israel-Palestine

I think that rather than dwelling on the suffering and atrocities the various parties have inflicted upon each other we should talk about what could solve the problem. Focusing on the past creates a mindset which prevents a peace process from moving forward and fosters a continuing tit-for-tat.

So lets focus on solutions. Real, practical solutions. How would a peaceful Israel-Palestine look? How do we get there?

As a starting point I think that reasonable people would agree that the Israeli's will not leave allowing a Palestinian state to emerge in Israel-Palestine. And on the flip side the Palestinians in the occupied territories will not simply leave either.

This really leaves two options; a two-state solution or a blended-state.

The two-state solution tends to be favoured by all parties and involves Israel withdrawing to 1967 borders and a Palestinian state in control of the West Bank and Gaza strip. The complication is Palestinian Authority does not have enough power to prevent radical groups from attacking Israel and if an attack occurred Israel would re-occupy and everything would be back where we started.

A blended state would mean that the occupied territories essentially became a part of Israel - and that Palestinians had full voting rights. Two nations represented by one state. Of course neither populace would really like this, Palestinians would perceive it as losing - especially as they would need to submit to Israeli law enforcement (Palestinian law enforcement being inadequate) and Israeli's would be conscious that the Palestinians will rapidly be able to out-vote them.

Tbh I can't think of a good solution, though I am inclined to the blended state. Getting there seems to be an easier question though. Before a lasting solution can be developed there needs to be peace to do it in. That means Palestinian attacks on Israel need to stop. Israeli attacks on/occupation/blockade of the occupied territories needs to stop. Israeli settlements need to stop. Arab states need to acknowledge Israel and they need to be constructive in the peace process.

The whole issue is key to stability in the middle-east but has continued to defy solution - how can it be solved?



Note: in the interests of neutrality I have referred to the combined Israel and Occupied territories as Israel-Palestine with no implicit statement about where one ends and the other begins.
 

Sprangler

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Re: Peace in Israel-Palestine

I don't agree with the blended state, the Arab birth rates are higher than the Jews, it would defeat the purpose of having a Jewish state.

In the West Bank, to go back to the 1967 borders would require dismantling hundreds of settlements, uprooting thousands of angry religious Jews from their homes who may/may not even recognize the state of Israel, and will fight the security forces to defend their property, and may even resort to terrorism against Israel or against Palestinians.

In Gaza? There is no negotiations there. Hamas cannot be controlled by the Palestinian authority, and they are not going to update their charter and suddenly recognize Israel and give up the armed struggle, so unless there is another election for a different party to represent the Gazan people, their situation won't change.
 
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JonathanM

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Re: Peace in Israel-Palestine

No matter how good your intentions, watch this thread very quickly denigrate to a sledging competition. Will happen even faster if that Jeeee bitch finds this thread sooner, "th3 Zionist enemies R in all our basez. dey control da world, but somhow canot kill us".

While they do exist, I can count the number of pro-Palestinian supporters on this forum ready for a decent debate on the topic and ready to concede arguments as well as to 'win' them at times on one hand. I think the case is similar for the Israeli supporters, although they number far fewer in this forum than their opponents. The rest can be summarised by the very group they reside in; an "anti-Israel" group, rather than a "pro-Palestinian" group, which I think displays their blinding hatred of Israel, rather than their belief in finding a solution.

I once had the ( immense :p ) pleasure of agreeing with Nebs on something concerned with this. We both agreed that there should be a two state solution, that a Palestinian state should be in Gaza, most of the West Bank and that there should be an international shared zone in East Jerusalem, which would also act as the Palestinian capital.
 

loquasagacious

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Re: Peace in Israel-Palestine

Yeah I kind of expect it to degenerate a bit like that - however we might see some reasonable debate happen and who knows maybe some other posters will have the same pleasure that you and Nebs did....
 

Ben Netanyahu

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Re: Peace in Israel-Palestine

loquasagacious said:
The two-state solution tends to be favoured by all parties and involves Israel withdrawing to 1967 borders and a Palestinian state in control of the West Bank and Gaza strip.
Nope.



This is the only acceptable solution for land division - the one created before the Jews started stealing the land. Anything else is unacceptable.

Tbh I can't think of a good solution, though I am inclined to the blended state. Getting there seems to be an easier question though. Before a lasting solution can be developed there needs to be peace to do it in. That means Palestinian attacks on Israel need to stop. Israeli attacks on/occupation/blockade of the occupied territories needs to stop. Israeli settlements need to stop. Arab states need to acknowledge Israel and they need to be constructive in the peace process.
I'm still unsure why you think a blended state would be a better solution. Main reason looks to be about security - that's a load of hogwash imo.
 

Riet

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Re: Peace in Israel-Palestine

Nope.



This is the only acceptable solution for land division - the one created before the Jews started stealing the land. Anything else is unacceptable.



I'm still unsure why you think a blended state would be a better solution. Main reason looks to be about security - that's a load of hogwash imo.
What was wrong with it in 1947? lol
 

loller

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Re: Peace in Israel-Palestine

i hope the conflict continues for a long long time so i have stuff to argue about
 

Brontecat

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Re: Peace in Israel-Palestine

Sectarianism is a major driving force behind this civil unrest; in a country where religion is so very divided it has become normal for the 'state' to allow each religion to abide by its customs particularly in the case of marriage. For muslims it is customary to have no need for formal recognition unlike the contrast of christianity.
There is also the issue of tolerance between the religions. Jewish people often believe that they are the one true religion whereas islam seems to acknowledge that there are other religions but seem to have a very 'each to their own attitude', whilst many christian seem to not even care.

*hope some of this made sense, sort've just some mumbo jumbo in my head written down

in terms of the divide or blend ---> i could not see any working, there's too much anger and past for a blended society and too many different beliefs to equally divide the country without causing more anger to one of teh groups who think that they should have more land and that their major religious centres that border or 'quach' within other religious centres should not be uprooted.
 

JonathanM

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Re: Peace in Israel-Palestine

What was wrong with it in 1947? lol
The man makes a good point :p

Nope.



This is the only acceptable solution for land division - the one created before the Jews started stealing the land. Anything else is unacceptable.
The Golan Heights is in that map, Nebs, we've gone over why that can't be part of any peace plan :mad:

The Palestinians never actually 'owned' it; it was taken from the Syrians and due to it's immense strategic importance, Israel would only ever hand it back if it had a 110% guarantee that doing so would mean it would never ever get attacked (which is highly unlikely).

Agree with everything else tho (if it weren't logistically impossible to evacuate some of the parts of the West Bank highlighted :/ ).

Also I think it's important to note that in 1947 most of the orange territory highlighted in the south was and mostly still is just desert.
 

B_B_J

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Re: Peace in Israel-Palestine

The only road block to peace in the region is Israel's refusal to recognize non jews in the region as human beings, going on and on about Hamas's refusal to recognize Israel's right to exist is a convenient way of passing responsibility on to the victims. Even if Hamas became buddies with them, Israel has a long list of excuses that the rest of the world is willing to accept at a moments notice.
 

loller

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Re: Peace in Israel-Palestine

hamas shouldnt have invaded their jewish homeland then
 

Freedom_

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Re: Peace in Israel-Palestine

Imo, Hamas are pretty bad but the thing is that the Israeli regime is a dozen times worse. Both have petty theological roots and are equally ruthless. One is a lot more effective than the other but the intent is pretty much the same.

In saying that Palestine are the rightful owners of their land and in my honest opinion anyone that tries to show UN resolutions etc etc is an utter fool.
 

B_B_J

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Re: Peace in Israel-Palestine

hamas shouldnt have invaded their jewish homeland then
Hamas are ordinary humans with self respect not to give in to oppression.

Yes they are weak, yes they would keep more Palestinians alive if they become subservient.

But would anyone here do that? If someone oppresses your family would you just bow your head and accept it or would you fight back?

And Hamas is getting no one in trouble. The Palestianians and Hamas are the same people, Hamas came into existence from the Palestianian rage, they are recruits from Palestinian families. There is no question of them being irresponsible and putting the wider community in danger.
 

loller

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Re: Peace in Israel-Palestine

palestine should have thought twice about invading israel in 67 then
 

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