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In defence of eugenics (2 Viewers)

Graney

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In the 1920s and '30s, scientists from both the political left and right would not have found the idea of designer babies particularly dangerous- though of course they would not have used that phrase. Today, due to the work of Adolf Hitler, the idea is felt too dangerous to even discuss among prominent scientists. Nobody wants to be caught agreeing with that monster, even in a single particular.

The spectre of Hitler has led some scientists to deny breeding for human qualities is even possible.

But if you can breed cattle for milk yield, horses for running speed, and dogs for herding skill, why on earth should it be impossible to breed humans for mathematical, musical, or athletic abilities? Objections such as 'these are not one-dimensional abilities' apply equally to cows, horses, and dogs and never stopped anyone in practice.

There is growing evidence that average racial differences in intelligence may well be intractable and partially genetic- shown through the work of scientists such as Arthur Jensen and John Philippe Rushton. Nobel prize winner and DNA pioneer James Watson is a supporter of this research.

I wonder whether, some sixty years after hitlers death, we might at least venture to ask what the moral difference is between breeding for musical ability and forcing a child to take music lessons. Or why it is acceptable to train fast runners and high jumpers but not to breed them.

It's important to remember, even if group differences in racial intelligence are proven, and even if we begin to breed superior human traits, it in no way invalidates the universal nature of human rights.
 

jb_nc

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In defence of weed:

(i) gets you high
(ii) you get munchies
(iii) yeah bitch

I rest my case.
 

Iron

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Graney said:
It's important to remember, even if group differences in racial intelligence are proven, and even if we begin to breed superior human traits, it in no way invalidates the universal nature of human rights.
Explain how
 

Graney

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Iron said:
Explain how
I dunno, these human rights, they're universal and absolute and stuff. Mabye I'm an absolutist now. All men were created equal under god, an inviolable rule.

Mabye we can hold that all men should be entitled to equal opportunity, even if their born abilities are scientifically proven not equal.
 

Iron

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Garr! Another one bites the dust!
Fisher of men I tell you,
fisher of men
 

Kwayera

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To be fair, eugenics is something that humanity does instinctively (and to a statistically significant degree - tall people mate with tall people, pretty people mate with pretty people...). It's about Darwinian fitness.
 

Enteebee

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Explain how
Because the basic essence of being a self-aware human identity (or something along these lines) is what grants them such rights.
 

Kwayera

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Enteebee said:
Because the basic essence of being a self-aware human identity (or something along these lines) is what grants them such rights.
Which gives people a headache when you consider that certain other primates, cetaceans and even some birds have comparable levels of self-awareness (if not intelligence).
 

Enteebee

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Well I'm not sure if you could say there is at all consensus (regarding self awareness) and I know of at least one major neuroscientist who believes (don't know off the top of my head) a certain part of our brain which is particularly large and involved in certain types of abstract thinking is what gave us the ability to consider the 'I'.

I do believe in a sense all animals and probably even something like our computers have this, just not to the extent we do. But eh, maybe your guys are right...
 

Iron

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Sooo, I have human rights because I understand that I have human rights?
Forward backward inward outward come and join the chase!
Nothing could be dryer than a jolly caucus race!

------------>flute
 

Enteebee

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You have human rights because you can feel pain in much the same sense as I can because uniquely you have the ability to form an identity. Of course this leaves us with problems for some groups of people...
 

Iron

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Backward forward outward inward bottom to the top
Never a beginning there can
never
be
a
stop to skipping dancing tripping fancy free and gay
I started it tomorrow and will finish yesterday!
 

Kwayera

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Enteebee said:
You have human rights because you can feel pain in much the same sense as I can because uniquely you have the ability to form an identity. Of course this leaves us with problems for some groups of people...
And animals that can do the same thing.

That's an interesting thought though - what about severely injured or mentally disabled people who lose their ability for self-awareness?
 

Iron

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ROUND AND ROUND AND ROUND WE GO AND DANCE FOREVER MORE
ONCE WE WERE BEHIND BUT NOW WE FIND
WE
ARE
BE-
Forward backward inward outward come and join the chase!
Nothing could be dryer than a jolly caucus race!

I say! You down there! You wont get dry like that!
Have to run with the others you know
 

Enteebee

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Well for them all I can say is that a) they once had an identity and we imagine such things in an immortal sense or if they never did then b) we attach to them a human identity.

As for the animals you cannot at all prove that animals can do the same thing in the same way as human beings.
 

Kwayera

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Enteebee said:
As for the animals you cannot at all prove that animals can do the same thing in the same way as human beings.
Of course they don't. Human beings don't do the same things as other human beings. However, in tests for self-awareness, animals such as the chimpanzee, the African Grey Parrot, and at least two cetaceans (bottlenose dolphin and orca) did at least as well as humans did.
 

Will Shakespear

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Are all humans really self aware though?

I mean if you think of, like, really stupid scummy people who go thru life wandering around shopping centres and pumping out kids, it's sort of like... they aren't really self aware, say compared to anyone posting on here... they don't 'know that they know', really

So it's not all equivalent just coz they're yoomans
 

Enteebee

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Idk if the mirror test and such speaks of the sort of what I (admittedly have trouble defining) consider self-awareness. For instance while I could create a computer program which could pass the mirror test fairly easily and I would agree that this would grant it 'self awareness', I am after something different. In my opinion at least I would want my computer program to have at least the basic recursive ability to not only recognize that "that reflection is me" but to be able to think "I am thinking that that reflection is me".... perhaps cognitive self awareness is a better way to describe it?

It's quite possible in my opinion that apes, dolphins etc etc have this quality, but this is yet to be proven and will probably require a greater neurological understanding of our own brains.
 
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