Israel and Palestine (4 Viewers)

[Aryanbeauty]

Re: Israel & Palestine

Enough of this conceptual rubbish. Do not come in here and debate Israel's existence. Do not tell me it does not exist. There is a plot of land that lies between Lebanon, Syria, Egypt, Palestine etc. It is under Israeli rule. Israel owns that land. Do not say anything about stealing or annexing or any other emotionally fuelled cry baby whingy nonsense. Ownership...sure argue all you want. Who has the right to it, who deserves it...even better, clearly this is controversial. But existence...And do not tell me that I am misinterpreting this or taking it too literal. Existence is a well defined term, you have used it with it's full intent. Israel exists...period

Soo true. In fact arab league asked two weeks ago to Israel for the creation of Palestine State which is NON-Existent, and the return of land pre 1967 war. Beggars!

 

[jenzipoo]

Re: Israel & Palestine

so why are israelis and the west so obsessed with the palestinians seeing israels right to exist if, as you say, it already physically exists?

yes it physically exists and yes it is fully recognised as a legitimate country by the west and the UN, the problem arises when peace is desired.
we wont wake up one morning and poof the palestinians and israelis love each other, woop dee doo koombaya. itll need long negotiations and sacrifices on both sides. here comes the need for the recognition of israel.
puting aside the fact that israel wont negotiate with terrorists or their organisations, generally a country cannot deal with any organisation that wont recognise it at all. if you look at the core as to why these organisations wont recognise israel its because they believe they have the right, and will ultimately reattain all the land. if israel is trying to make peace with these groups nothing will be accomplished because they have an all or nothing policy and dont believe the Jews should be on their land.

so simply the recognition of israels right to exist is the key to the start of peace negotiations...without this recognition israel is fighting a stubborn bunch of people and nothing will ever eventuate.

 

[jenzipoo]

Re: Israel & Palestine

No..

That land doesnt belong to Israel anyway. Israel doesnt exist - it is not recognised by the Palestinians.

let me guess israelis just live there, the councils pay for new parks roads etc and the army secures it just in the meanwhile..keeping it warm for the palestinians

mate, youve got high hopes

 

[S1M0]

Re: Israel & Palestine

Great posting there man. Everyone who defends Israel is a 'Zionist' much like everyone who defends Palestine is an 'Islamic extremist'.

Thats generalisation for you.

 

[HotShot]

Re: Israel & Palestine

Even though in 1992 Yasser Arafat accepted the Israeli right to exist???

'right to exist' they have the right to exist. But they dont exist :rofl:


Two different things there mate,

Palestinians dont recognise Israel - therefore Israel does not exist. End of Story.

 

[HotShot]

Re: Israel & Palestine

lol if you say so mate

Yeah we need to keep this discussion rollin.

Israel defies GOD's will.

 

[extraordinary07]

Re: Israel & Palestine

i like palestine i went there

good food, nice places and a very unique culture

however,

i think that terroism is bad:mad1:

not good for other people

and we should stay out of their affairs they are good but not good

 

[nathan71088]

Re: Israel & Palestine

Yeah we need to keep this discussion rollin.

Israel defies GOD's will.

Let's keep this discussion rolling. But let's get one thing straight. Are we discussing the middle eastern conflict or religion here. Choose religion and discuss religion. But if this is about the middle east, do not bring your anti-semitic remarks to the table. Do not mask a religious debate with politico-religious jibes about a controversial and serious conflict.

 

[S1M0]

Re: Israel & Palestine

Let's keep this discussion rolling. But let's get one thing straight. Are we discussing the middle eastern conflict or religion here. Choose religion and discuss religion. But if this is about the middle east, do not bring your anti-semitic remarks to the table. Do not mask a religious debate with politico-religious jibes about a controversial and serious conflict.

hmm...nathan.

Hey, do you happen to be Jewish by any chance?

If so, i haven't had a challenging debater for a long time (the Jewish guys i've met here are very good debaters), so yeah.

 

[nathan71088]

Re: Israel & Palestine

hmm...nathan.

Hey, do you happen to be Jewish by any chance?

If so, i haven't had a challenging debater for a long time (the Jewish guys i've met here are very good debaters), so yeah.

hehe

I try to make it explicit in my posts that I don't really care what religion a person is. I value an opinion when it is pure and untainted from racial, religious or prejudiced bias. I support what I see to be right. Make no mistake, no one individual, institution or country is free from regrets.
I have no delusions of grandeur that I can sway someone's opinion if they tell me Israel does not exist. But it is the unopinionated, "passer-by" reader who I hope to impact on. Religion, I hope, has nothing to do with this, nor does being right or wrong. It is the falsities and clarifications that are the issues here.

 

[S1M0]

Re: Israel & Palestine

hehe

I try to make it explicit in my posts that I don't really care what religion a person is. I value an opinion when it is pure and untainted from racial, religious or prejudiced bias. I support what I see to be right. Make no mistake, no one individual, institution or country is free from regrets.
I have no delusions of grandeur that I can sway someone's opinion if they tell me Israel does not exist. But it is the unopinionated, "passer-by" reader who I hope to impact on. Religion, I hope, has nothing to do with this, nor does being right or wrong. It is the falsities and clarifications that are the issues here.

Nice speech, but my question only required a "yes" or "no" answer.

But from analysing your post and making some form of half educated educated guess....i'll say that you are actually Jewish. You sound like it from your posts.

But if i'm wrong, say so.

 

[nathan71088]

Re: Israel & Palestine

Nice speech, but my question only required a "yes" or "no" answer.

But from analysing your post and making some form of half educated educated guess....i'll say that you are actually Jewish. You sound like it from your posts.

But if i'm wrong, say so.

Like I said, I try to not bring religion into this as best as I can. You can guess what you want. Does your guess change your opinion of what I say?

 

[S1M0]

Re: Israel & Palestine

Like I said, I try to not bring religion into this as best as I can. You can guess what you want. Does your guess change your opinion of what I say?

No, but it tells me what your stance regarding the israel-palestine issue will be.

You are deliberately trying to avoid the question, i dont see why.

 

[nathan71088]

Re: Israel & Palestine

No, but it tells me what your stance regarding the israel-palestine issue will be.

You are deliberately trying to avoid the question, i dont see why.

Correct me if I am wrong, my position is quite explicit in what I post.

I am not avoiding...I am dismissing. I have stated religion should not come into this.

 

[S1M0]

Re: Israel & Palestine

Correct me if I am wrong, my position is quite explicit in what I post.

I am not avoiding...I am dismissing. I have stated religion should not come into this.

hmm...

you know what, i actually shouldn't have ranted on like i did. I'll stop now, and...well i'm going to apologise for that set of posts. Its was pretty stupid of me to say those posts and everything.

And yeah, religion shouldn't come into this. We're agreed. I look forward to talking with you in the near future.

 

[nathan71088]

Re: Israel & Palestine

hmm...

you know what, i actually shouldn't have ranted on like i did. I'll stop now, and...well i'm going to apologise for that set of posts. Its was pretty stupid of me to say those posts and everything.

And yeah, religion shouldn't come into this. We're agreed. I look forward to talking with you in the near future.

Hey, it's no problem. You are entitled to any opinion you hold. Definitely look forward to talking more, and my sentiments are, don't hold back, if you or someone else say something I disagree with or wish to clarify, I'll tell you. I hope you and anyone else will do the same.

 

[S1M0]

Re: Israel & Palestine

Hey, it's no problem. You are entitled to any opinion you hold. Definitely look forward to talking more, and my sentiments are, don't hold back, if you or someone else say something I disagree with or wish to clarify, I'll tell you. I hope you and anyone else will do the same.

agreed

 

[HotShot]

Re: Israel & Palestine

Let's keep this discussion rolling. But let's get one thing straight. Are we discussing the middle eastern conflict or religion here. Choose religion and discuss religion. But if this is about the middle east, do not bring your anti-semitic remarks to the table. Do not mask a religious debate with politico-religious jibes about a controversial and serious conflict.

You do realise the middle eastern conflict - is a primarily a political conflict drivin by religious motives?

The jews will defend Israel on two basis - the Holocaust and the God's will. Those are there two primary reasons.

for the Arabs - it has always been there land, and they have been mishandled by the British.

After all the region was under British mandate, and it was them who where controlling the region's affairs. Controlling immigration and trying to settle disputes.
But of course the poms dont do a good job at anything, they screwed they allowed too many jews into the country.

Just imagine what would happen if a 100 million chinese came to Australia and bought your homes and businesses - wouldnt be too happy would be. Especially if there were restrictions on immigration on jews placed.

 

[nathan71088]

Re: Israel & Palestine

You do realise the middle eastern conflict - is a primarily a political conflict drivin by religious motives?

The jews will defend Israel on two basis - the Holocaust and the God's will. Those are there two primary reasons.

for the Arabs - it has always been there land, and they have been mishandled by the British.

This is a common misconeception, controversial in many circles of zionist thought as well. Was Israel formed because of the Holocaust? I do not like to think that 6 million Jews were murdered solely for the sake of gaining land. So I do believe that if there had been no Holocaust Israel would EVENTUALLY become independant, but at the same time, the Holocaust, in my opinion, whether rightly or wrongly, was a factor for Israel's independance TO OCCUR AT THAT TIME.
Also, the Holocaust was not solely a religious issue. Jews were greatly targeted, but so were blacks, Homosexuals, gypsies and the mentally disabled. From an overt Nazi perspective it was about race not religion.

Yeh..., it's a nice thought to bring in G-d's will but Israel is not a completely religious country. The majority of soldiers fight for the security of the country. No where has the IDF ever claimed to be fighting for "G-d's will". (I do not presume to say religion does not feature in this conflict, but it is not the main reason.)

So from Israel's perspective, it is clearly not an issue of religion. This is compounded by the fact that there is no positive religious value in conflict by Israel.

You yourself have stated: " for the Arabs - it has always been there land, and they have been mishandled by the British."

So it isn't about religion for the Arabs as YOU have clearly stated. Sure, the main groups of resistance (Hizbollah, Hamas and Islamic Jihad) are all religious organisations, but that is only a coincidence. Isn't it?

So this isn't about religion. Or is it, because it seems that the only ones promoting a religious conflict are those that "have been mishandled by the British."

 

[HotShot]

Re: Israel & Palestine

This is a common misconeception, controversial in many circles of zionist thought as well. Was Israel formed because of the Holocaust? I do not like to think that 6 million Jews were murdered solely for the sake of gaining land.

I didnt say that! I said the Jews use the excuse of the Holocaust to defend the right of Israel.

Also, the Holocaust was not solely a religious issue. Jews were greatly targeted, but so were blacks, Homosexuals, gypsies and the mentally disabled. From an overt Nazi perspective it was about race not religion.

But you dont see gypsies, or blacks using the holocaust as a cause or excuse.
to say religion does not feature in this conflict, but it is not the main reason.)

So it isn't about religion for the Arabs as YOU have clearly stated. Sure, the main groups of resistance (Hizbollah, Hamas and Islamic Jihad) are all religious organisations, but that is only a coincidence. Isn't it?

Religion has been excuse to get things down, when they cant think of a reason they immedialtely say god said this or we should do this because it is god' s will. But the fact who are they to say to comment or command on god's will. So religion is involved its just exploited.

Its is religious/cultural conflict. ITs a culture that has developed over time - thanks political forces namely USA and UK. Religion was exploited. REligion or not, ARabs in general will not get along with Israel's one of the reasons is religion and others as a result of the past.

Both sides need to forget about the past and move on. BUt obviously there are groups in both sides that dont want this to happen.